CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Islam...

[BugI02]

Do you have BBI on your ignore list?

I saw a typical assertion of "islam is teh evil" and that's about it. Didn't see a consensus on that.

Some background: I've evolved on this subject in the past year or so. I, too, blanketly admonished Islam with the low-information, absolute stance that people are tossing around here. Even got banned for it.

Yessss. Just the person to comment on this

 

[jamil]

It has turned people from God to themselves, from His purposes to ours, from His rewards to ours, from the pursuit of truth and understanding to the adoption of whatever we want to believe at the moment.

Why? Because its designer hates God, hates all of humanity, and knows that in our fallen nature, apart from God, we'll try to fill God's place within each of us with every other thing imaginable.

But that's not important right now, there's petty arguments to be had.

Until someone can make a legitimate case that any of that is true, so what? INGO is diverse enough that faith is as irrelevant to them as skepticism is to you. Rather than "deception" from supernatural beings, I suspect the problem of deception or delusion is much more likely to have a natural, human cause.

 

[jamil]

Yessss. Just the person to comment on this

quoted for fun.

 

[jamil]

I seek a perjorative term. 'Colorist' would just make you seem like someone's hair-stylist. Perhaps 'Crayonist' for your deep-seated devotion to only the 8 most basic colors

Well, that lighter teal at least shows up better against the green background of the text editor, but shows up worse against the tan background of the view post elements.

 

[ATM]

Until someone can make a legitimate case that any of that is true, so what? INGO is diverse enough that faith is as irrelevant to them as skepticism is to you. Rather than "deception" from supernatural beings, I suspect the problem of deception or delusion is much more likely to have a natural, human cause.

Post #885 in that other thread was an earlier clue, you should have read it rather than skimming.

Jesus made a legitimate case but you likely skimmed that, too. Your conclusions have suffered and they will continue to suffer.

I'll help you get over whatever caused this in you if you ever offer me the chance.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Cross-posting here, since it's got a lot of talk about different sorts of Muslims, terrorism, political mudslinging, etc... Pretty related to some stuff being talked about here... with some remarks from Muslims

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQZdmvT72qo (Language)

"If we knew that after 30 years we're gonna have Burkhas running around, and Mosques being erected at every corner, and people proposing Shariah law against Democracy in this country... we wouldn't have come."

Here are the non-commentary sources of Mohammad Tawhidi's talks on Islam, and its need for reformation. He speaks on the 2nd book after the Quran, saying terrorism is largely taken from that book.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmcCmjhO8KQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYuHJ1mrsLI

Also you can skip to 11:12 in the Sargon video at the top to get to Mr. Tawhidi's condensed comments. Some interesting takes.

 

[jamil]

Post #855 in that other thread was an earlier clue, you should have read it rather than skimming.

Jesus made a legitimate case but you likely skimmed that, too. Your conclusions have suffered and they will continue to suffer.

I'll help you get over whatever caused this in you if you ever offer me the chance.

This is "post #855 in that other thread".

OMG! He tweeted #covfefe! It's a alt right curse on humanity! We'll all be turned into frogs! Does this thing turn up to 12?

Are you saying I skimmed my own post?

Or maybe ambiguity is really not your friend.

 

[JettaKnight]

Until someone can make a legitimate case that any of that is true, so what? INGO is diverse enough that faith is as irrelevant to them as skepticism is to you. Rather than "deception" from supernatural beings, I suspect the problem of deception or delusion is much more likely to have a natural, human cause.

Are you asking for proof that any book is dictated by or inspired by a supernatural being?

There's sort of two three sides to this thread's "truth"; arguments are made based on one's beliefs:
1. Allah does not exist.
2. Allah exist and Mohamed is his prophet.
3. Allah exist and Mohamed is a false prophet.

Of course for you, "the problem of deception or delusion is much more likely to have a natural, human cause", because the supernatural realm doesn't exist in your worldview!

Christianity implicitly makes the claim that all other religions are of... shall we say, the creation of a fallen angel. Therefore, in order to provide you with your "legitimate case", one need only convince you that orthodox (little 'o') Christianity is true - no small task, indeed.

 

[T.Lex]

Are you asking for proof that any book is dictated by or inspired by a supernatural being?

There's sort of two three sides to this thread's "truth"; arguments are made based on one's beliefs:
1. Allah does not exist.
2. Allah exist and Mohamed is his prophet.
3. Allah exist and Mohamed is a false prophet.

Of course for you, "the problem of deception or delusion is much more likely to have a natural, human cause", because the supernatural realm doesn't exist in your worldview!

Christianity implicitly makes the claim that all other religions are of... shall we say, the creation of a fallen angel. Therefore, in order to provide you with your "legitimate case", one need only convince you that orthodox (little 'o') Christianity is true - no small task, indeed.

I think, conceptually, there are far more shades of gray than those 3.

Allah may exist as the shared God of all 3 religious traditions. Mohammed may or may not be a prophet to whom He revealed Himself for that audience at that time. Mohammed may be a false prophet, or even THE false prophet. (I think this unlikely, based on some shared traditions of evaluating fruit.)

I know what I believe (after much scrutiny). I do not claim to know all that is True, let alone all that could be True.

 

[BugI02]

ATM, what is your core point?

Is it simply that the beliefs and tenets of Islam are not grounded in reality? I agree, they are ridiculous...almost as ridiculous as Christianity's core beliefs and tenets.

That is a vey real problem with supposed "revealed truths", there is no way to verify that God is speaking anyone, including oneself.

Paul, I haven't read through to the end of this to catch up yet, but I have gone a few pages further than your post - enough to conclude you might not ever get a straight answer from ATM

So, I will jump into the breach. I believe ATM's core point is that Islam was designed by the other side in the battle of good against evil, inspired by Satan and delivered to Mohammad either directly or by another of the fallen as a snare for all mankind to lead as many of them as possible astray and disrupt the works of the remainder

This may provide some biblical perspective:

Matthew 7:15-20King James Version (KJV)


15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

The argument could be summarized as Islam is a tree that is bearing poisonous fruit thus the tree itself is suspect. For transparency, this is a perspective I happen to agree with

I will admit that one argument I haven't heard made is to reference the comparative youth of Islam. The arguable worst excesses of Christianity being the crusades and the inquisition, these excesses were on the order of 1000 years ago and thus not so fresh in collective memory. The argument could go that perhaps in 1000 years Islam will take its place as a civilized religion. Given what I can see of the impending train wreck I don't think we can wait

 

[IndyDave1776]

I think, conceptually, there are far more shades of gray than those 3.

50?

 

[foszoe]

You're as delicate and diplomatic as ever.

Islam, like almost all religions (and Spike Lee) emphasize "doing the right thing" as means of salvation. The result is a religion that promotes the individual's ability to save/improve their own afterlife through the good deeds.

In contrast, Christianity claims there's no amount of good deeds you can ever do to save yourself - even the most pious life is still a disgusting steaming pile of poo in the eyes of a Holy God. Jesus says, "I have a free gift; accept it."

So you are saying God loves poo?

You're embracing Calvin's Christianity claims.

 

[BugI02]

If I didn't think people would want to disagree, it would hardly have been worth saying.

Perhaps you were once capable of challenging me on something important, perhaps not. I truly wish you could and would. I love a challenge, not a nuisance.

Seems you just opted out of such a huge segment of reality for some reason. I'd love to hear your personal story if you ever care to offer it. Can't imagine.

This is not a challenge for a boxing or wrestling belt where you or your handlers can pick and choose the most personally advantageous match-up. It is more like a jousting tourney where chivalry requires you to meet all contestants on the field of honour

jamil has thrown down the gauntlet, couch you lance or retire

 

[ATM]

This is "post #855 in that other thread".



Are you saying I skimmed my own post?

Or maybe ambiguity is really not your friend.

You're looking in the wrong thread, but thanks for the unknowing catch.

I went back to verify and it was actually post #885, which can't be directly quoted anymore.

 

[JettaKnight]

I think, conceptually, there are far more shades of gray than those 3.

Allah may exist as the shared God of all 3 religious traditions. Mohammed may or may not be a prophet to whom He revealed Himself for that audience at that time. Mohammed may be a false prophet, or even THE false prophet. (I think this unlikely, based on some shared traditions of evaluating fruit.)

I know what I believe (after much scrutiny). I do not claim to know all that is True, let alone all that could be True.

3? .... Oh, Judaism? I guess I haven't seen any arguments for that.

The problem is that Islam and Christianity are wholly incompatible at their core - Christ makes the explicit claim (and clarified by Paul) that salvation only comes from Grace given by Him to those that have faith in Him. Islam makes the claim that salvation can be earned through righteous living.

Islam created a whole set of new laws above and beyond the Jewish holy laws, whereas Christian knocked down those laws. (see my "life verse", Acts 10:13 )

 

[foszoe]

I think, conceptually, there are far more shades of gray than those 3.

Allah may exist as the shared God of all 3 religious traditions. Mohammed may or may not be a prophet to whom He revealed Himself for that audience at that time. Mohammed may be a false prophet, or even THE false prophet. (I think this unlikely, based on some shared traditions of evaluating fruit.)

I know what I believe (after much scrutiny). I do not claim to know all that is True, let alone all that could be True.

The correct answer is if you think the God you have defined exists, you are wrong.

This of course means that the only correct choice is 1

 

[JettaKnight]

So you are saying God loves poo?

Yes, he loves me.

You're embracing Calvin's Christianity claims.

When do I not embrace Calvinism?

 

[foszoe]

 

[T.Lex]

The correct answer is if you think the God you have defined exists, you are wrong.

This of course means that the only correct choice is 1

Simplistic response: "God" and "Allah" and even "YHWH" are human labels (the last of that list has a certain provenance, but remains a human label).

My expression of the concept - and I tried to convey that in my last short paragraph - is that I do not limit God. He is capable of far more than I can imagine, let alone express. To say that He could not reveal Himself to Mohammed is to limit Him.

ETA:
You can believe that He did, didn't, or couldn't, but that does not change my fundamental belief in His omnipotence and mystery.

 

[BugI02]

There are two competing ideas for how the universe came into being. Supernatural and natural. Complexity beyond our knowledge is not evidence of supernatural causes.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Would not "A miracle ('magic') could not be distinguished from a sufficiently advanced technology by our current level of knowledge" be equally true?

'Complexity beyond our knowledge is not evidence of supernatural causes' nor does it suffice as evidence against them