CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Islam...

[ATM]

As far as Islam being inherently violent, I'm more worried about formerly secular Islamic states (Turkey and Indonesia) veering into the radical path.

I'm glad we got Egypt back from the brink (for now).

Yep, if they believe Islam, they're more susceptible to enacting its plan than if they just pretend to.

 

[IndyDave1776]

As far as Islam being inherently violent, I'm more worried about formerly secular Islamic states (Turkey and Indonesia) veering into the radical path.

I'm glad we got Egypt back from the brink (for now).

I am also glad that we no longer have a president and secretary of state hell bent on destabilizing secular Islamic states and replacing them with radicals (i.e., 'arab spring').

Here's hoping the Jordanian model, or something similar, becomes popular.

Agreed. I would argue that King Abdullah II is one of the best national leaders on the face of the planet.

 

[T.Lex]

I agree with you, even though you love the Tiber!

Sometimes I prefer the Rubicon.

 

[Lelliott8]

I find it pointless to argue the finer points of Islam, as its creator filled it with so many twists that one could easily become lost in them and miss the big picture (like what is happening on this very forum before your eyes). What has been the effect Islam has had on humanity? Why?

 

[T.Lex]

For about a billion people (now), the effect has been normal. They work, they have a family, they try to make things better for their community. Kinda like normal people all over the world.

 

[ATM]

Yes, but that doesn't inherently make the whole story more true by referring to itself as the source of the truth of the whole story. I'm not trying to be argumentative, just pointing out that logic is not necessarily a virtue when discussing matters of faith.

Perhaps you are capable of harmonizing the two but haven't yet. Your logic and faith are not enemies, but they might both be weak.

Keep in mind, Mohammed considered parts of the Gospel and Old Testament to also be holy books. In a sense, the veracity of those texts would carry through.

Mohammed wrote exactly what he was told, why do you doubt this? That's what the "angel" told him to write because that was an important part of the clever ruse - falsely claiming a revisionist place within the veracity of an existing and well-established historical record of God and His interactions with His creation.

If we, as Christians, expect to have our faith respected, we should endeavor to treat others the same way. We need not accept other beliefs as truth, simply by accepting that the holders of those beliefs are reasonable people.

I don't expect any of my beliefs (faith) to be respected. Why would anyone? I sure don't respect any of your beliefs, but I do respect you.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

For about a billion people (now), the effect has been normal. They work, they have a family, they try to make things better for their community. Kinda like normal people all over the world.

wait wait wait wait wait wait wait, back the hijab truck up.

They're normal? I've been led to believe all billion of them are wearing bomb vests with a vendetta against America.

 

[T.Lex]

wait wait wait wait wait wait wait, back the hijab truck up.

They're normal? I've been led to believe all billion of them are wearing bomb vests with a vendetta against America.

Well, the billion isn't an exact number, and doesn't reflect the total of Muslims in history, but yeah... when all tallied up, IMHO the effect of Islam on humanity is that the followers tend to be normal people.



ETA:

Not really a rule 34 thing (yet), it looks like the internet DOES have at least 1 pic of a hijab truck

 

[hog slayer]

For Think:

What's the difference between a religion that commands it's followers to violence on unbelievers and a religion that only sounds like it commands it's followers to violence on unbelievers?

 

[hog slayer]

wait wait wait wait wait wait wait, back the hijab truck up.

They're normal? I've been led to believe all billion of them are wearing bomb vests with a vendetta against America.

close. But not exactly

 

[ATM]

I find it pointless to argue the finer points of Islam, as its creator filled it with so many twists that one could easily become lost in them and miss the big picture (like what is happening on this very forum before your eyes). What has been the effect Islam has had on humanity? Why?

It has turned people from God to themselves, from His purposes to ours, from His rewards to ours, from the pursuit of truth and understanding to the adoption of whatever we want to believe at the moment.

Why? Because its designer hates God, hates all of humanity, and knows that in our fallen nature, apart from God, we'll try to fill God's place within each of us with every other thing imaginable.

But that's not important right now, there's petty arguments to be had.

 

[jamil]

First, welcome to INGO.

The Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad who was an illiterate man who claimed to be a prophet just like Abraham, Moses and Jesus.
The question is how do we know he was telling the truth? He was either Lying, deluded or telling the truth:


1. Lying

Before he claimed to be a prophet, he was nicknamed “Al Amin” The trustworthy" one as he was never known to lie. People would lie to get material gain however he was offered wealth, position and women to leave his message but he rejected this and instead lived a life of struggle.
This is not the profile of a liar.

.2. Deluded

He might think he is a prophet but is not.However someone who is deluded could bring about a miraculous book like the Quran. The Quran could not be produced by a human so for it to be revealed to Mohammad shows that he was not deluded.

3. Speaking the truth

So therefore when we look at the life and character of Muhammad pbuh we see he was telling the truth and that he is what he claims which is a prophet of God.

Respectfully, points 1 and 2 are not evidence that there are supernatural beings called angels, or that they revealed "truth" to Mohamed, or that Mohamed was not lying or delusional. The third involves circular reasoning which does not produce a conclusion that follows the premises.

 

[ATM]

wait wait wait wait wait wait wait, back the hijab truck up.

They're normal? I've been led to believe all billion of them are wearing bomb vests with a vendetta against America.

One of the cleverly designed effects of 9/11, that deception is very much connected with this one.

We were certainly led there, but not all of us followed.

 

[Lelliott8]

Hmmm... interesting rhetoric, without really offering any of your claimed evidence. Though perhaps I missed it.

Every religion is a 'system' designed to get people to act a certain way. Your indictment of Islam could just as easily be turned against Catholicism. Perhaps you mean it that way?

Specific to Islam, there are a multitude of verses expressing how to get along, not to mention that the other holy books include parts of the Christian Bible.

Though again, as I seem to have missed your posts on the topic, I likely missed the support for your statements. Please either repost or direct me to what I missed.


This inherently raises the issue of "truth." I would suggest that to participate in a civil discussion of Islam, one should intellectually separate from the idea that Christianity - or any other religion - is the Truth.

And again, every organized religion is an effort to motivate people to act a certain way - to "enslave" them.


Whoa, hoss. I think you misunderstand some fundamental parts of Islam. The most disgusting violence Daesh dishes out is against other Muslims. Being considered apostate by them is a seriously bad day.

My claimed evidence is history and the Islamic doctrine as a whole. Not every religion is a system. Some just recounted miraculous happenings and the Word of God. Religion formed naturally as a result of those things.

The creator of Islam knows full well that the Bible is the Word of God, yet paradoxically commands his followers to obey it while violating its core tenets.

No other religion applies force against its followers like Islam. The penalty for leaving is death. Earthly death at the hands of other followers.

You failed to fully read my posts. I am already aware and have stated that being a hypocrite/apostate is a death sentence in Islam. I specifically wrote "devout Muslims" are off limits. ISIS targeting apostates is not news to me.

 

[JettaKnight]

Isn't that the same circular logic/article of faith supporting the Bible or other divine text?

Islam is certainly not alone in that regard, so I'm not sure its fair to fault Muslims for a non-logical point of faith that is shared across many cultures/religions.

If that was all Christianity had, then I'd agree. However, a lot of the proof comes from internal evidence (is the text complete or does it contradict itself), external evidence (other text and events that corroborate), age of manuscripts, etc., etc.

Apologetics is way more than, "the Bible is from God because it's miraculous." (whatever exactly miraculous means)

Now, I'll say that Christianity has a wider row to hoe because Islam only has to make the claim that Mohamed is a prophet of Allah, Christianity has to make the claim that Jesus is Allah.

Too bad L. Ron Hubbard isn't available....

Or Joseph Smith or Mary Baker Eddy or...

The integrity of the author is factor, but not the be all, end all qualification for validity of a religious text. Take the Book of Mormon for example - ignoring the dubious origin story, one need only read it to realize it's a hot mess.

The only major difference is that the Quran and other books were either written by or about Mo and his life. Christianity (and Judaism) has a diverse amount of authors writing what could seem to be very disparate books that make up a whole story.

This would have been one of my arguments had I not been busy reading the last five pages. Jesus never wrote anything - multiple other people did.

I don't need that proven. One of my points is that the Quran is more clever in achieving its two primary goals than I could give any mere human credit for.

I find it far more reasonable to conclude that Islam (and its god) is the fabrication of a clever, angry "angel" that hates God and everything that God created.

I concur.

 

[spencer rifle]

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia-ahlul-bayt-dilp-team/al-taqiyya-dissimulation-part-1

 

[JettaKnight]

It has turned people from God to themselves, from His purposes to ours, from His rewards to ours, from the pursuit of truth and understanding to the adoption of whatever we want to believe at the moment.

Why? Because its designer hates God, hates all of humanity, and knows that in our fallen nature, apart from God, we'll try to fill God's place within each of us with every other thing imaginable.

But that's not important right now, there's petty arguments to be had.

You're as delicate and diplomatic as ever.

Islam, like almost all religions (and Spike Lee) emphasize "doing the right thing" as means of salvation. The result is a religion that promotes the individual's ability to save/improve their own afterlife through the good deeds.

In contrast, Christianity claims there's no amount of good deeds you can ever do to save yourself - even the most pious life is still a disgusting steaming pile of poo in the eyes of a Holy God. Jesus says, "I have a free gift; accept it."

 

[ATM]

You're as delicate and diplomatic as ever.

Islam, like almost all religions (and Spike Lee) emphasize "doing the right thing" as means of salvation. The result is a religion that promotes the individual's ability to save/improve one's afterlife through the good deeds.

In contrast, Christianity claims there's no amount of good deeds you can ever do to save yourself - even the most pious life is still a disgusting steaming pile of poo in the eyes of a Holy God. Jesus says, "I have a free gift; accept it."

Indeed.

This turn of discussion very much reminds me of another thread I started several months ago. Post #1249 was a little clue

...in a field of clues

...during clue mating season.

Silly INGO, I know you.

I also happen to love you.

 

[spencer rifle]

You're as delicate and diplomatic as ever.

Islam, like almost all religions (and Spike Lee) emphasize "doing the right thing" as means of salvation. The result is a religion that promotes the individual's ability to save/improve their own afterlife through the good deeds.

In contrast, Christianity claims there's no amount of good deeds you can ever do to save yourself - even the most pious life is still a disgusting steaming pile of poo in the eyes of a Holy God. Jesus says, "I have a free gift; accept it."

^^^^THIS.

 

[BugI02]

Yeah. Teal.

Bug knows I'm just kidding.

I seek a perjorative term. 'Colorist' would just make you seem like someone's hair-stylist. Perhaps 'Crayonist' for your deep-seated devotion to only the 8 most basic colors