CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • Status
    Not open for further replies.

    T.Lex

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    15   0   0
    Mar 30, 2011
    25,859
    113
    Hey everybody, the real foszoe's back! :)

    First, as I get older, I care less about what divides us. So, I'm not really interested in that.

    Second, though, out of respect for the effort, I will comment on a few of the points.

    - Grace - my understanding is that it is a convenient label for multiple aspects of God's energy (borrowing f'bomb's Orthodox formulation). That is, we pray that Mary was/is full of "God's grace." Well, sure she was/is. She consented to bearing Him and raising His mortal self. Instead of "multiple," I should probably say "infinite." It can also be God's own way of touching our own internal godliness, and even cultivating it, so that it is expressed differently to/from each of us.

    - checkboxes - yeah, this is a human problem. The milestones help us keep the path; they remind us of where we're going and where we've been. It is easy to view them as the actual paths, when they aren't. He is the path. But, He's blessed humanity with certain opportunities... certain habits... that help keep the mind and soul right. So here's something - I'm not actually confirmed. In high school, I went to bible study and youth group and was active in the church, but even then, I wasn't sure that it was something I wanted to dedicate the rest of my life to. With my mom's blessing (pardon the pun), I opted not to. (There were other things going on in my life, too, so even if I had, I'm not sure it would've been true.) As time's gone on, and I have dedicated myself (as best I can) to God as a Catholic, I haven't felt drawn to check the box. Yet, at the same time, I do feel like I've tested out of that particular class.

    - doctrinal development - I think this, and "papal infallibility" are misconstrued. As humanity matures, and people understand the world differently, biblical doctrine can remain true and applicable in new ways. That's part of the miracle. For instance, Pope JPII commissioned a doctrinal study that resulted in the Theology of the Body. The Theology of the Body is one online source. It really is fascinating. As society's broken down certain barriers about the body, it has also presented an opportunity to re-examine genders and sexuality biblically. Believe me, I was skeptical that this was just a Catholic sex ed thing. But, as my younger kids studied it in school, it really is pretty amazing. It ties in OT and NT concepts - some of which have been around a long time - but integrates and aggregates them in a new way. I was very impressed. To me, it is an example of how modern study of the Bible can develop doctrine that is renewed and applicable to modern society.
     

    foszoe

    Grandmaster
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    24   0   0
    Jun 2, 2011
    17,847
    113
    Hey everybody, the real foszoe's back! :)

    First, as I get older, I care less about what divides us. So, I'm not really interested in that.

    .

    I hope it comes across in my posts here, but I agree very much with this statement. Except the age part as the cause.

    When I engage here or elsewhere, it is not for me a need to be right. 10 years ago, it would gave been. Now It is really more of a strong desire and belief that so many are missing out on so much.

    Like when you read Clifts notes or The Reader's Digest Condensed book and can't figure out why someone keeps insisting you should read the whole book.
     

    historian

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Oct 15, 2009
    3,326
    63
    SD by residency, Hoosier by heart
    Hey everybody, the real foszoe's back! :)

    First, as I get older, I care less about what divides us. So, I'm not really interested in that.

    I hope it comes across in my posts here, but I agree very much with this statement. Except the age part as the cause.

    When I engage here or elsewhere, it is not for me a need to be right. 10 years ago, it would gave been.

    I, too, fall into this camp. That is why I posted that podcast, I felt it would help us to quit talking past each other.
     

    T.Lex

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    15   0   0
    Mar 30, 2011
    25,859
    113
    I've caught a couple episodes of The Story of God on NatGeo, with Morgan Freeman (who ROCKS - dude was predestined to do this kind of thing). :) Some really good stuff. Not Christian-specific by any means. In fact, some participants in this thread may even be offended at some of the segments. But, really fascinating.
     

    T.Lex

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    15   0   0
    Mar 30, 2011
    25,859
    113
    Hmmm... kickin' it new school... maybe some updated Gregorian...

    [video=youtube;ng2zWEzi_6Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ng2zWEzi_6Y[/video]
     

    Alpo

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Sep 23, 2014
    13,877
    113
    Indy Metro Area
    I think that's why they hid the choir in the balcony. Get a load of that "guy" on the right.

    One more and then it will be back to your regularly scheduled essays.

    This one more or reflects my thoughts on the subject.

    [video=youtube_share;nlaoR5m4L80]http://youtu.be/nlaoR5m4L80[/video]
     

    ChristianPatriot

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    28   0   0
    Feb 11, 2013
    13,238
    113
    Clifford, IN
    Continuing on...

    At the risk of a derail....
    Uh, you don't consider Catholicism to be Christian? What about Orthodoxy?

    I don't. Are there some Catholics/Orthodox that will go to heaven? I suspect so, and to them I say amen hallelujah. I don't believe the majority of Catholicism/Orthodoxy to preach the correct, biblical salvation. So I cannot, in good conscience, call them Christian. Atheists feed the poor, are loving to people, and are charitable. I wouldn't call them Christians either. Baptism being included as part of salvation, infant baptism, confessing your sins to priests, the Pope having the highest authority, none of those are Biblical. But I would enjoy talking about it with you. I certainly don't mean that any of you (lex, fos, etc.) aren't Christian. I don't know you or your hearts well enough to be the judge of that.
     

    T.Lex

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    15   0   0
    Mar 30, 2011
    25,859
    113
    Continuing on...



    I don't. Are there some Catholics/Orthodox that will go to heaven? I suspect so, and to them I say amen hallelujah. I don't believe the majority of Catholicism/Orthodoxy to preach the correct, biblical salvation. So I cannot, in good conscience, call them Christian. Atheists feed the poor, are loving to people, and are charitable. I wouldn't call them Christians either. Baptism being included as part of salvation, infant baptism, confessing your sins to priests, the Pope having the highest authority, none of those are Biblical. But I would enjoy talking about it with you. I certainly don't mean that any of you (lex, fos, etc.) aren't Christian. I don't know you or your hearts well enough to be the judge of that.

    Thank you for your honesty. :)

    May I ask what denomination or Christian ideology (for lack of a better word at the moment) you follow? I apologize if you've stated it elsewhere and I've forgotten. :)
     

    ChristianPatriot

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    28   0   0
    Feb 11, 2013
    13,238
    113
    Clifford, IN
    Thank you for your honesty. :)

    May I ask what denomination or Christian ideology (for lack of a better word at the moment) you follow? I apologize if you've stated it elsewhere and I've forgotten. :)

    Independent Baptist.

    Now, if you asked me if Independent Baptists are the only ones preaching correct theology? To that I would give a hardy :laugh: and a heck no!! Having been in an Independent Baptist church my entire life I am well aware of the MAJOR downfalls made by them. Personally I couldn't care less what name you have on your sign, but I also understand why it's there. Denomination means a set of beliefs (which is why non-denominational always made me chuckle). If you don't line up with the Independent Baptist flavor, I'm not mad bro.
     

    ChristianPatriot

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    28   0   0
    Feb 11, 2013
    13,238
    113
    Clifford, IN
    I should also state that by MAJOR downfalls I don't mean doctrinally, but in practice, there are some things that they've gotten wrong for a long time. It frustrates me because I see the destruction it's caused.
     

    T.Lex

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    15   0   0
    Mar 30, 2011
    25,859
    113
    Independent Baptist.

    Now, if you asked me if Independent Baptists are the only ones preaching correct theology? To that I would give a hardy :laugh: and a heck no!! Having been in an Independent Baptist church my entire life I am well aware of the MAJOR downfalls made by them. Personally I couldn't care less what name you have on your sign, but I also understand why it's there. Denomination means a set of beliefs (which is why non-denominational always made me chuckle). If you don't line up with the Independent Baptist flavor, I'm not mad bro.

    I should also state that by MAJOR downfalls I don't mean doctrinally, but in practice, there are some things that they've gotten wrong for a long time. It frustrates me because I see the destruction it's caused.

    Again, thank you for your openness. :)

    I cannot claim to have great insight into the specifics of what "Independent Baptist" means, so again, my questions are born from ignorance and have no intent to offend.

    A couple of your points jumped out at me, and it can get complicated to try to address numerous assertions in one post, so I'll try to remain limited.

    First, your notion of "not being surprised" to find non-Christians (using your definition) in Heaven is something I share. Something I heard years ago resonated with me, along the lines of "Whichever place I end up in, I'll be surprised at who is there and who is not." How far does that extend? Can an atheist make it to heaven?

    Second, when you say baptism as part of salvation is unbiblical,* what do you mean? I guess I'm confused about what what role you see baptism as having (particularly as a "Baptist"). :)


    * When I first read your post, I did not have enough coffee, so I thought it said, "Baptists being included as part of salvation...." Took me a couple re-reads to get that out of my head. :)
     

    ChristianPatriot

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    28   0   0
    Feb 11, 2013
    13,238
    113
    Clifford, IN
    Well, historically, we are Anabaptists or "one who baptizes again". Unlike Protestants, Lutherans, etc., we didn't come out of the Catholic Church. We've never been part of it. We were around before it started and continued on through it's inception and growth and severe persecution (I know Foszoe, Roman Catholics did that). We don't recognize infant baptism. Baptism is done in obedience after salvation. So when someone came to salvation out of the Catholic Church they had to be baptized again, or for the first time depending on how you look at it.

    Romans 6:4-5 “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"

    That word likeness is the Greek word hom-oy'-o-mah. "A form; abstractly, resemblance:--made like to, likeness, shape, similitude."

    One of the Baptist distinctive is two ordinances: Baptism and the Lord's supper. Two pictures of the gospel. Do you need them for salvation? No. Do you need to do them to be in obedience and in good communication with God? Yes. We don't believe in transubstantiation either. You aren't literally eating Christ or drinking his blood during the Lord's supper, as it states in Council of Trent 1376.
     

    T.Lex

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    15   0   0
    Mar 30, 2011
    25,859
    113
    Interesting. Particularly the historical part about not deriving from Catholicism. When do you assert that "Catholicism" started?

    Clearly, I have some reading to do. :) I don't think I've ever heard of Anabaptist before.
     

    Mark-DuCo

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Aug 1, 2012
    2,388
    113
    Ferdinand
    Well, historically, we are Anabaptists or "one who baptizes again". Unlike Protestants, Lutherans, etc., we didn't come out of the Catholic Church. We've never been part of it. We were around before it started and continued on through it's inception and growth and severe persecution (I know Foszoe, Roman Catholics did that). We don't recognize infant baptism. Baptism is done in obedience after salvation. So when someone came to salvation out of the Catholic Church they had to be baptized again, or for the first time depending on how you look at it.

    Romans 6:4-5 “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:"

    That word likeness is the Greek word hom-oy'-o-mah. "A form; abstractly, resemblance:--made like to, likeness, shape, similitude."

    One of the Baptist distinctive is two ordinances: Baptism and the Lord's supper. Two pictures of the gospel. Do you need them for salvation? No. Do you need to do them to be in obedience and in good communication with God? Yes. We don't believe in transubstantiation either. You aren't literally eating Christ or drinking his blood during the Lord's supper, as it states in Council of Trent 1376.

    The Baptist religion was around before the Catholic religion?
     
    Status
    Not open for further replies.
    Top Bottom