CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[T.Lex]

Cool! I didn't realize its the same day for both of us. (Kinda figured it was an Easter/Pascha calendar thing.)

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Roncalli board member shows support for guidance counselor by resigning

Also, not sure if this is the same person, but someone is pushing legislation to remove grants to schools that fire people for "LGBT" reasons.

 

[miguel]

Roncalli board member shows support for guidance counselor by resigning

Good.

Now if the rest of the guitar strumming pinkos will resign, Roncalli can go back to being a great Catholic high school instead of Camp Kumbaya.

 

[foszoe]

Most fixed days are same. You are right to identify the Paschal cycle as the main difference and that's because well, Pascha!

Pascha moves so all feasts move with it. Ascension is always 40 days after Pascha, Pentecost is always 50 days after Pascha. We also count the 40 days of Lent differently so Lent starts at different times even if Pascha lines up with Easter.

Annunciation, Christmas, Theophany (Epiphany), Dormition of the Theotokos, Nativity of the Theotokos are all the same even though there are some differences in what we celebrate. For example, Theophany is the Baptism of Christ while for Latins, it is the Wise Men. Nativity of the Theotokos implies Immaculate conception for Latins etc.

Cool! I didn't realize its the same day for both of us. (Kinda figured it was an Easter/Pascha calendar thing.)

 

[T.Lex]

@miguel - You realize she helped make Roncalli great, right?

 

[breakingcontact]

Roncalli board member shows support for guidance counselor by resigning

Also, not sure if this is the same person, but someone is pushing legislation to remove grants to schools that fire people for "LGBT" reasons.

I'd like to see more parents remove their kids from government schools for many reasons.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

At the risk of turning this into a funny Christian posts thread but this one made me laugh...

https://babylonbee.com/news/mob-angry-arminians-pulls-statue-john-calvin/

 

[Ziggidy]

Romans 1:24 Some are given over to sin, that being their judgement here on Earth.

Very deceiving example of what you were trying to say; especially considering the passages before and after that explain that.

I stated no one is "called" to live in sin; and stand by that. One may choose sin, at which time the Lord will give them the desires of their heart.

We are born into sin but have a choice to "live in sin" or to "live in Christ" - we are forced to do neither.

 

[Ziggidy]

Roncalli board member shows support for guidance counselor by resigning

He should resign, or be fired.

"...amazing ability to inspire, guide and shape the SPIRITUAL life of our students...."
".....a faithful minister of the church's teachings...."
"...always preached the message of the gospel...."

These are words of a board member of a catholic church who is speaking about a person who lied on their contract, who is living a life contrary to the church's teachings, and is married to another female? "....faithful minister of the church's teaching...."? "... shaping the spiritual life of the students..."?

I am not catholic, but regardless, this could be seen in any church. When the leaders of any church openly support those who are living in sin and living a life of deception and allow them to influence, in any small way, our children......something is terribly wrong.

People wonder why the message of Christ is being watered down? Who is influencing your children? Who are the role models? Who will our children model when they grow older? Who are they modeling now?

And people wonder. WE will be held responsible, and rightfully so.

Matthew 18:6

 

[T.Lex]

Statement of the Indy Archbishop.

Dear Sisters and Brothers in Christ:


I regret the pain that has been caused by the recent controversy surrounding the employment of Shelly Fitzgerald, a guidance counselor at Roncalli High School in Indianapolis. We are called as the Body of Christ to pray for and love one another, even in times of disagreement and controversy.


As has been reported in the media and discussed publicly by Ms. Fitzgerald, she is living in a civil marriage to another woman that is not valid in the eyes of the Church. She is on paid administrative leave. The issue concerning Ms. Fitzgerald’s employment is not about sexual orientation, but about the Church’s teaching that marriage is a covenant between a man and a woman as established and revealed by God.


There is nothing in Church teaching that says being gay or lesbian is a sin. God created each of us with equal dignity. The dignity of the human person, rooted in his or her creation in the image and likeness of God, is a fundamental principle of Catholic social teaching. The Church upholds the dignity of every human person, including persons with same-sex attraction, who “must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity” (Catechism of the Catholic Church, #2358).


At the same time, the Church upholds the dignity and sanctity of marriage, a natural institution established by God. By its very nature, marriage is a permanent partnership between one man and one woman ordered to the good of the couple and the procreation and education of children. It is the foundation of the family, where children are raised and nurtured, and learn values and virtues that help them to grow in maturity.


The archdiocese’s Catholic schools are ministries of the Church. School administrators, teachers and guidance counselors are ministers of the faith who are called to share in the mission of the Church. No one has a right to a ministerial position, but once they are called to serve in a ministerial role they must lead by word and example. As ministers, they must convey and be supportive of the teachings of the Catholic Church. These expectations are clearly spelled out in school ministerial job descriptions and contracts, so everyone understands their obligations.


When a person is not fulfilling their obligations as a minister of the faith within a school, Church and school leadership address the situation by working with the person to find a path of accompaniment that will lead to a resolution in accordance with Church teaching.


Let us pray that everyone will respect and defend the dignity of all persons as well as the truth about marriage according to God’s plan and laws.

Please know of my prayers for you, and I ask of your prayers for me.


Your Brother in Christ,


Archbishop Charles C. Thompson

​

 

[historian]

 

[JettaKnight]

Catechism of the Catholic Church, #2357-2359 ... huh. I guess the Catholics already have that defined out (1992?) properly and the Protestants are playing catch-up.

 

[indiucky]

Some historian has been on twitter...

 

[historian]

Some historian has been on twitter...

Got that off another forum! I forum around...

 

[foszoe]

Chapter 1

1 There are two ways, one of life and one of death; and great is the difference between the two ways.
2 This is the way of life: ‘First you shall love God who made you, secondly, your neighbor as yourself; and whatever you would not like done to you, do not do to another.’
3 The teaching of these words is as follows: ‘Bless those who curse you, and pray for your enemies, and fast for those who persecute you. For what is the merit of loving those who love you? Do not even the pagans do this? But, ‘love those who hate you,’ and you will not have an enemy.
4 ‘Abstain from carnal desires.’ ‘If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other to him,’ and you will be perfect. ‘If anyone force you to go one mile with him, go two.’ ‘If anyone takes your cloak, give him also your tunic.’ If anyone takes what is yours, do not demand it back, for you have no power.
5 Give to everyone who asks, and ask nothing in return; for the Father wishes that a share of His own gifts be given to all. Blessed is the man who gives according to the commandment, for he is without blame. Woe to the man who takes. However, if the one who takes is in need, he is without blame. But should he not be in need, he shall give an account of the why and the wherefore of his taking it. And he will be put in prison and examined strictly about what he did, and ‘shall not go out from there until he has paid the last cent.’
6 But in this matter the saying also holds: ‘Let your alms sweat in your hands until you know to whom you are giving.’

Glimm, F. X. (1947). The Didache or Teaching of the Twelve Apostles. In F. X. Glimm, J. M.-F. Marique, & G. G. Walsh (Trans.), The Apostolic Fathers (Vol. 1, pp. 171–172). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.

 

[T.Lex]

And if the church believes that saying a hail mary is a prayer, then why does a priest make it a punishment (penance)? It seems to me forcing someone to chant a prayer minimizes it's meaning and purpose.

I don't get it.

Why not just allow the Holy Spirit to convict you of you wrong doing and have a heartfelt talk with God; who says you are forgiven if you ask "Him".

Ok.

This is digging into the beginnings of this thread, but if you click on the little arrow next to my name in the quote below, it should take you to that part of the thread.

That is a more wide-ranging conversation about some Catholic issues, so the signal to noise ratio may not be great for our narrow topic right now. Totally understand that.

But, it may help provide a starting point on this and other issues.

Only skimmed the rest of the thread, but didn't see an answer to this.

First, on infallibility, there's a bait-and-switch in the link.


Ok, so, I highlighted certain parts.

First, "the ability" to speak ex cathedra is not the same as being infallible. When divine truth has been revealed to the Pope (or college of bishops), that's when he speaks ex cathedra. It is doctrinal, not personal. If the pope says after breakfast, "Wow, that bacon was the best evah!" It does not mean that the bacon was truly the best that has ever been created.

Rather, it is when a specific set of criteria has been fulfilled related to a fundamental part of Catholicism. It is not issued lightly.

Second, the blue and red are the bait and switch. Not all of the pope's teachings are infallible. Like I said above, it is only certain things.

Is there a particular one you have issue with?

Praying to people? I already tried to explain it. At some point, bringing it back up becomes rude.

Confessing to priests - that's more a traditional thing. Isn't required. Feels more tangible than just, "Oh, I can take care of it myself."

Ok, then Purgatory.

First, does this really make a difference? None of us knows how it works. Hopefully, some of us will find out (in a good way) at some point.

Second, it is a bit of a syllogism that makes Purgatory makes sense. Sin makes our souls impure. Nothing impure can enter Heaven. Somehow, our souls are made pure before entering Heaven. Thus, Purgatory - or some similar process.

Finally, Catholicism does not hold up tradition higher than the Bible. Unless you care to cite specific examples, I'm not sure what else to say.

By the way - did you know that we didn't "invent" guardian angels?

Also thought about starting a new thread, but not sure if it would be an issue. Anyone watching The Bible Continues on NBC? Basically follows Acts, but has some really interesting storylines to "flesh out" the events. Some of it is totally made up, but some is rooted in the real life politics of the time. I think they did a good job with it.

 

[foszoe]

Not too many posts ago, I asked what a question along the lines of what is salvation? Is it more than the forgiveness of sins? The one word response was yes, from one person.

I am going to expand on that a little bit.

The answer is very simple. Salvation is union with God. That's it in a nutshell. That was the theology of ancient Christianity and is still the message of Orthodox Christianity to this day.

The second item I have advocated for often is to leave quit thinking of sin as a crime and punishment scenario. I commit a crime, I need forgiveness. <Insert mechanism here>. I am forgiven. That is medieval, reformation theology.

Now if salvation is not just the forgiveness of sins than is one saved when their sins are forgiven? No.

So to my Protestant friends, which is it?

I offer again the paradigm of sickness and health. Sin is a sickness of human nature and salvation means the healing of that nature and restoring it to full health which is union with God.
Quit focusing on the Cross, focus on Jesus.

Jesus message on earth begins with the uniting of humanity with divinity in the mystery of the incarnation and ends with the ascension of that humanity, with its full health restored, to the right hand of God. We are called to become by grace, everything God is by nature.

Now confession. The Bible clearly says certain men were given the authority to forgive sins. So why do most Christians not just follow the Bible rather than argue about whether or not its necessary. I ask that question a lot of other Christians. If the whole Bible is authoritative why do they only pick certain parts of it to REALLY follow?

The main reasons are usually ignorance or pride.

Thinking of sin as crime and punishment is usually the culprit. The Greek word sozo, save, means exactly that. If you are drowning, "Save me!". If I or my family member is sick, "heal them"!

Its the same word.

I am speaking as Orthodox, not Catholic. I hope their theology is not penance=punishment even if that is the modern protestant interpretation. The Orthdox understanding is salve, medicine.
The goal is union with God not forgiveness of past sins, that's only part of it.

However, most Protestants i know don't go to a self taught doctor. They don't read all the engineering books they can and try to self certify they are engineers or physicists. But when it comes to union with God. That is exactly what they are all about.

When I, ok maybe that is not the best example, when my wife or children become ill. Do I heal them myself? Do I take them to someone with experience in the matter?

The priest acts as a physician not a judge. Prayers are not punishments they are prayers. Have we come so far that we will call praying punishment now? The priest offers medicine. It is up to the patient to take it. If I go home and do not take the antibiotics, I might die, I might take longer to recover, but I still, depending on the illness, recover. However, I am always better off taking the medicine. Asking if it is necessary is the wrong question. Asking if it is is helpful on the path to salvation the right one. Many people also struggle with "have I really been forgiven"? when the scriptural answer is these men were given the power to forgive sins. Many people who struggle with guilt are healed through the hearing of the absolution itself.

Seldom am I given a therapy after confession, I can't remember the last time actually. Yet to most Protestants, they seem to believe that is part of the necessary order of confession so that we somehow have to suffer in order to be forgiven. That is all backwards we suffer because we ARE forgiven.

The priest probes the illness and gets to the root of the problem and cuts it out. It can be painful, it can be joyful. The Church has a 2000 year head start on any of us in the medicines needed to eradicate sin from our lives.

Most of us have confidants were turn to in times of deep anxiety or crisis for advice. That is until its is what should be the most anxious moment of all. Working out our salvation. Then we decide we know whats best for ourselves. That is pride.

We are afraid to admit wrongdoings to others. That is pride.

Blessed are the humble.

Time to take out the trash so this will have to end for now

 

[T.Lex]

Not too many posts ago, I asked what a question along the lines of what is salvation? Is it more than the forgiveness of sins? The one word response was yes, from one person.

[I didn't answer because I didn't think you were asking me.]

 

[T.Lex]

Catechism of the Catholic Church, #2357-2359 ... huh. I guess the Catholics already have that defined out (1992?) properly and the Protestants are playing catch-up.

Jetta - I didn't respond to this either, because I wasn't sure what you were getting at.

Did you have some specific question about the Catechism? It is kinda cool to go through it and see how topics are treated from time to time. Kinda like opening up the Bible to a random page and seeing what's in there... "randomly."

 

[breakingcontact]

Had that awkward moment of bonding between my Baptist family and a Catholic family around homeschooling at soccer the other night.