CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[foszoe]

Would you be surprised, that my Baptist church, doesn't do "altar calls"?

I realize I use a broad brush but with Protestantism you can't cover everyone as easy as Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, or Coptic Orthodox because Protestants who have a serious difference in doctrine church shop until they find acceptance because of the very nature of Protestantism.

However there have been some new participants in the thread so they aren't used to seeing my posts as much ( they have been much longer than my posts you have seen to the point that probably most readers except perhaps TLex just skim them if they even read them ). I am glad to see the new regulars though

So no I wouldn't be surprised. My background is specifically Church of God (Holiness) NOT out of Anderson, IN but rather Overland Park, KS. I tell most people that the most similar that they would know would be Wesleyan or Nazarene churches and am more familiar with altar calls rather than the progression in other Churches. However, with Protestantism it would be a full time job keeping up the the nuances between the churches because most of them come about through a doctrinal difference, tongues, predestination that when you ask if it means anything (by this I do not mean to be flippant but am thinking about soteriological concerns), they will say no! Which leads one to question why they divided the Body of Christ? This is what surprises me. It would not enter the mind of sincere Orthodox to start a new church over such things. We just argue about them in the parish hall over coffee after the Sunday service. Our typical arguments are over such mundane things as calendars (Julian vs Gregorian or Revised Julian) at times. Much easier to discuss religion with Catholic or Non Chalcedonean Orthodox because there are teachings that must be universally accepted. Probably several Orthodox would label me a liberal because of my stance on the calendar or my confessed agnosticism over Creation vs Evolution. I will repeated be found stating that the Nicene creed and the Church require a belief that God created ex nihilio. The mechanism has never been declared and we can all argue about it without any fear of its impact on our eternal destination which is always in the hands of a merciful God. That issue would and does divide Protestant churches.

For the Orthodox, the doctrine determines the worship and the worship determines the doctrine. They can't be separated. Its in our name for Orthodox can mean both right belief and right worship. Some might say what is the role of scripture in worship and doctrine. Well I can tell you definitively that you would be hard pressed to attend any worship service at a protestant church and hear more scripture than you would at an Orthodox parish.

Oh BTW welcome to what I would consider brevity.....

 

[JettaKnight]

Here's a fun series of blogs on the topic: How Charles Finney Ruined Worship, part 1, part 2, and part 3

(I didn't write those. I just read them several years ago, and the ideas have stuck with me.)

That dude did have some piercing eyes...

He's really an interesting figure in a period of great change in the American church. Sort of a Joel Osteen of his day.

 

[breakingcontact]

I realize I use a broad brush but with Protestantism you can't cover everyone as easy as Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, or Coptic Orthodox because Protestants who have a serious difference in doctrine church shop until they find acceptance because of the very nature of Protestantism.

My background is specifically Church of God (Holiness) NOT out of Anderson, IN but rather Overland Park, KS. I tell most people that the most similar that they would know would be Wesleyan or Nazarene churches and am more familiar with altar calls rather than the progression in other Churches.

However, with Protestantism it would be a full time job keeping up the the nuances between the churches because most of them come about through a doctrinal difference, tongues, predestination that when you ask if it means anything (by this I do not mean to be flippant but am thinking about soteriological concerns), they will say no! Which leads one to question why they divided the Body of Christ? This is what surprises me.

It would not enter the mind of sincere Orthodox to start a new church over such things.

That issue would and does divide Protestant churches.

Well I can tell you definitively that you would be hard pressed to attend any worship service at a protestant church and hear more scripture than you would at an Orthodox parish.

You have much to say about the "Protestants" and "Protestant churches". Most protestants cannot articulate what they claim to believe and most protestant churches are off the rails theologically and I have no desire to defend them.

 

[JettaKnight]

Even among Protestants, "religious freedom" is still a rather new thing - say 300 years or so. Before that, you went to church in the local church, which could be a few denominations , mostly based on region (i.e. Lutherans, Anglican, etc.).

Wasn't more or less out the Great Awakening* and what could be described as "less stuffy" churches such as the Methodist & Baptist began to rise to levels previously only held by the Presbyterians and Congregationalist in America. I suspect it was more about "how they do church" and less about doctrine.

You have much to say about the "Protestants" and "Protestant churches". Most protestants cannot articulate what they claim to believe and most protestant churches are off the rails theologically and I have no desire to defend them.

It's worth noting that the level off theological knowledge of the average Christian is the analogous of preschool level.

Many, many churches have dumped theology overboard in favor of inclusiveness and unity.


* Correction: This was the Second Great Awakening. (thanks to BC)

 

[T.Lex]

You have much to say about the "Protestants" and "Protestant churches". Most protestants cannot articulate what they claim to believe and most protestant churches are off the rails theologically and I have no desire to defend them.

You will find that foszoe has a great deal of knowledge on many Christian theological topics.

I'm pretty sure he makes up some words sometimes just to keep us on our toes (almost everything ending in -akos or -erium), but overall he knows his stuff.

 

[T.Lex]

It's worth noting that the level off theological knowledge of the average Christian is the analogous of preschool level.

Many, many churches have dumped theology overboard in favor of inclusiveness and unity.

I think that's true for most PEOPLE in the West. Religion/theology isn't interesting, so they aren't knowledgable.

 

[breakingcontact]

Even among Protestants, "religious freedom" is still a rather new thing - say 300 years or so. Before that, you went to church in the local church, which could be a few denominations , mostly based on region (i.e. Lutherans, Anglican, etc.).

Wasn't more or less out the Great Awakening and what could be described as "less stuffy" churches such as the Methodist & Baptist began to rise to levels previously only held by the Presbyterians and Congregationalist in America. I suspect it was more about "how they do church" and less about doctrine.

You are describing the 2nd "Great Awakening" where pastors appealed for conversion largely through emotion. This is where you get your altar calls.

This is also where the Baptist church in America started moving from its historical Calvinist roots to becoming majority Arminian.

So, it was both a change from the Regulative Principle of Worship, to whatever folks wanted to do.

This is also when the vast splintering occurred that brought about the dozens of denominations we know today beyond the ones with direct roots in the reformation.

 

[JettaKnight]

So, I guess when your church's DNA is protesting and splitting away, it's hard not too keep on, keepin' on...


But, I believe most splits are because the main branch starts slipping left, the hardcore group gets marginalized until they either accept that the doctrine is compromised, or the break off and reform. If the majority is against you, and you feel convicted, what can you do?

Seems to me that a split isn't so bad of an idea.

An argument can be made for the manifold denominations during a better job at fulfilling the Great Commission.

For me, my biggest complaint against the Orthodox Church is the lack of evangelism and missionary work. At least locally, the only thing I see from our various Orthodox churches is self-preservation, not a big push to go into the community and fish for men - let alone a push to take the gospel unto the nations.

Is my perception in err?

For the Orthodox, the doctrine determines the worship and the worship determines the doctrine. They can't be separated. Its in our name for Orthodox can mean both right belief and right worship. Some might say what is the role of scripture in worship and doctrine. Well I can tell you definitively that you would be hard pressed to attend any worship service at a protestant church and hear more scripture than you would at an Orthodox parish.

Quite possibly. I'm not going to say if that's better or worse.

Oh BTW welcome to what I would consider brevity.....

I actually read your whole post!

 

[breakingcontact]

But, I believe most splits are because the main branch starts slipping left, the hardcore group gets marginalized until they either accept that the doctrine is compromised, or the break off and reform. If the majority is against you, and you feel convicted, what can you do?

This sometimes is an unfortunate necessity, such as in the Lutheran church and if the Methodist church is to maintain any legitimacy though I believe the explosion of church denominations in the 1800s did not follow this pattern.

 

[JettaKnight]

I think that's true for most PEOPLE in the West. Religion/theology isn't interesting, so they aren't knowledgeable.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

what do these Warcraft character names say about me

 

[JettaKnight]

what do these Warcraft character names say about me

That you play too much Warcraft?


I haven't played since the original back in college.

 

[foszoe]

That you are Jewish and know that -im means plural in Hebrew noun endings?

what do these Warcraft character names say about me

 

[ArcadiaGP]

That you are Jewish and know that -im means plural in Hebrew noun endings?

.... I do know the -im thing.... now. I've used those names for a bunch of things over the past decade or so. I think "Seraphim" sounds better than "Seraph", "Cherub", etc.

They're hard names to grab in MMOs! Got lucky with these. Had to petition a GM to give me "Seraphim" because whoever had it before wasn't playing.

I've used a bunch of others like Elohim, Erelim, Ophanim.... I didn't know it was a Jewish-exclusive thing, though.

 

[foszoe]

For me, my biggest complaint against the Orthodox Church is the lack of evangelism and missionary work. At least locally, the only thing I see from our various Orthodox churches is self-preservation, not a big push to go into the community and fish for men - let alone a push to take the gospel unto the nations.

Is my perception in err?

I wouldn't say the perception is in err but perhaps the complaint may be; not because of an error on your part but rather an incomplete understanding of the history of the Orthodox Church in the US.

With the exception of the Russian mission to Alaska in the 1600s and the west coast missionary work, there was not a significant Orthodox presence in the country and the majority of Orthodox Christians were under the Ottoman empire since the Fall of Constantinople where evangelization got you killed. Over centuries this has an effect.

In the late 1800s / early 1900s The ethnic group churches began to immigrate to north america. These people spoke mostly their own languages and seminaries were still forming.

Dialogue between Orthodox and Protestants and Catholics in this country didn't really begin in earnest until mid 20th century. Most all theological works were written in Greek and Russian or other Slavic languages. Hardly any English translations for mass consumption existed before the 1990s. The work recommended to most Non Orthodox was published in the 1960s by Timothy Ware entitled "The Orthodox Church" followed by "The Orthodox way" Evangelization is one reason why the Orthodox Church was a founding member of the WCC. A difficulty found in this dialogue was we found that we use the same words differently and they mean entirely different things, at times even contradictory. You have been witness to that here in our discussions over simple terms such as original sin which we call the ancestral sin. Justification was never really a topic for Orthodox but it is almost a pillar in Protestantism. Satisfaction is not a term that Orthodox discuss. God's anger is never in an Orthodox conversation about theosis aw we focus on God's mercy. I could go on, but you get the idea. Some of my long posts have dealt with me struggling to make sure I am elucidating the Orthodox position with terms that mean different things to you and me and trying to convey the difference correctly. I view what I do here as evangelism and some have responded positively. Orthodox Christians not only have to deal with differences in terminology but also with being viewed as a "Greek Catholicism" and all the baggage that comes with that. Before I can even get a conversation going on Orthodoxy, I have to answer a barrage of "Do you follow the pope? Do you believe in purgatory? Do you worship Mary before I can even get to Let's talk about Jesus. You get the idea.

The Antiochians spearheaded mission work. You may have heard of Peter Gilquist, he brought in 2000 various parishes across the US in the late 80's or early 90's The Greek Church has become greatly involved in mission parish work. Others are still lagging but many of them contributed ancientfaith.com which has literally hundreds if not thousands of hours of podcasts on just about every major topic and also streaming Orthodox music and talk radio. I can't emphasize enough the impact of this service.

Orthodox Christians are the most educated and wealthiest of any Christian group in the US so I do think we can catch up however we do still have a long way to go.

 

[foszoe]

I just thought you were embracing your Dissociative Identity Disorder

.... I do know the -im thing.... now. I've used those names for a bunch of things over the past decade or so. I think "Seraphim" sounds better than "Seraph", "Cherub", etc.

They're hard names to grab in MMOs! Got lucky with these. Had to petition a GM to give me "Seraphim" because whoever had it before wasn't playing.

I've used a bunch of others like Elohim, Erelim, Ophanim.... I didn't know it was a Jewish-exclusive thing, though.

 

[JettaKnight]

.... The work recommended to most Non Orthodox was published in the 1960s by Timothy Ware entitled "The Orthodox Church" ...

I actually have that book on my shelf. Part of my college curriculum.

Orthodox Christians not only have to deal with differences in terminology but also with being viewed as a "Greek Catholicism" and all the baggage that comes with that. Before I can even get a conversation going on Orthodoxy, I have to answer a barrage of "Do you follow the pope? Do you believe in purgatory? Do you worship Mary before I can even get to Let's talk about Jesus. You get the idea.

Good point.

There seems to be a lot of barriers to entry in the Orthodox church. Rituals, antiquated music, culture, hierarchy, traditions, highly defined theology...


Compare that to the happy church down the block: "Refresh! Church" come get refreshed with hip music, a pastor in skinny jeans and a total rad youth group! We're just people trying to live life to the fullest.


You got your work cut out for you.

Orthodox Christians are the most educated and wealthiest of any Christian group in the US so I do think we can catch up however we do still have a long way to go.

I can't imagine that's something to proud of. (not I think you would be)

 

[foszoe]

I actually have that book on my shelf. Part of my college curriculum.

Good point.

There seems to be a lot of barriers to entry in the Orthodox church. Rituals, antiquated music, culture, hierarchy, traditions, highly defined theology...

I would use the word "safeguards" instead of barriers. As for the rest, its exactly why I became Orthodox, with the exception of highly defined theology. I was looking for a rock and felt Protestantism was like shifting sand. I wanted stability. I wanted something that was a way of life. I wanted to use a tried and true spiritual toolkit that has born fruit vs chasing the latest spiritual tool "discovered by someone", thinking of the Prayer of Jabez craze because that was the latest rage I remember. Or needing the latest "study bible" to get the most out of my bible reading. I hope this is not sounding disparaging because its not intended that way.

I can't imagine that's something to proud of. (not I think you would be)

Yeah I was thinking more of we have the resources to do it but we need to wiser in how we use them AND make sure we are tithing both time and money because it isn't a shortage of resources.

We are learning from Protestants. We even try to poach some

Fr Barnabas Powell is one, Frank Schahfer was one but he didn't turn out as well as we would have liked. Although his video about the conversion is supposedly good. On Youtube, but I seldom go there.

I even know of a priest who has had several conversations with Rick Warren some of which are on the ancientfaith.com website in podcast form.

Protestants definitely have the marketing knowledge base In fact ancient faith radio got its start by a guy who used to run the Moody radio network but was fired because he became Orthodox.

 

[JettaKnight]

I would use the word "safeguards" instead of barriers. As for the rest, its exactly why I became Orthodox, with the exception of highly defined theology. I was looking for a rock and felt Protestantism was like shifting sand. I wanted stability. I wanted something that was a way of life. I wanted to use a tried and true spiritual toolkit that has born fruit vs chasing the latest spiritual tool "discovered by someone", thinking of the Prayer of Jabez craze because that was the latest rage I remember. Or needing the latest "study bible" to get the most out of my bible reading. I hope this is not sounding disparaging because its not intended that way.

I completely understand that.

We are learning from Protestants. We even try to poach some

I'm still smarting over the Hank Hanegraaff defection.

 

[foszoe]

I completely understand that.

I'm still smarting over the Hank Hanegraaff defection.

I meant to mention him forgot tho.

Such "defections" hopefully lead some to question why and may eventually lead to Orthodoxy