CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[JettaKnight]

John 3:16
1 Tim. 2:5-6
Acts 2:21
John 4:14
Matthew 16:25
Matthew 10:32

Still leaves the question of why do some receive it and others don't. If you operate a pure free will mode, then where does the Holy Spirit enter in to things?

I John 2:1-2

Could also be used to promote universalism or a counter to limited atonement.

Titus 2:11
II Peter 3:9

I'll give you these.

Acts 10:34
Romans 2:11

Shows that salvation is not limited to one people group, nothing more.

I Peter 1:16-17

Shows that faith is not blind.

 

[JettaKnight]

Prodigal:

1: spending money or resources freely and recklessly; wastefully extravagant.

2: having or giving something on a lavish scale.

God is very prodigal with us!

Oh, I thought you meant that God was like the prodigal son... which doesn't make sense at all.

 

[historian]

Oh, I thought you meant that God was like the prodigal son... which doesn't make sense at all.

But that is what we named the son. In reality the father (God) is very prodigal. He spends lavishly on his long lost son. I just finished Keller's book on it "The Prodigal God". It is a very good read and I enjoyed it. It was interesting to see it in that light. Also, the story is about the elder son, not the younger, which I found interesting.

 

[rvb]

Still leaves the question of why do some receive it and others don't. If you operate a pure free will mode, then where does the Holy Spirit enter in to things?

in Acts, Did the Apostles accept Christ because of the Holy Spirit? Or was it because they accepted Christ and believed that the Holy Spirit came, giving the gifts of being able to speak in other languages and therefore spread the Word?

Jesus says "If you love me" he will send the the Holy Spirit, who is an advocate. He doesn't say he'll send the Spirit to make them love Him...

There is a reference to the Holy Sprit "sealing" our redemption, but I at least don't recall scripture saying the Spirit leads us to redemption/faith/salvation?

There are lot of examples of being "full" of the spirit meaning we better reflect God and what he wants us to be. We see where being "full" of the Holy Spirit allows people to prophesize, speak in other languages, better be able to converse with secular leaders or people from other religions. I ask the Holy Spirit to help me when my kids ask tough questions and I want to give understandable yet correct answers....

After doing a study on the Spirit in our small group, I've been trying to ask of Him more often....

-rvb

 

[ChristianPatriot]

Still leaves the question of why do some receive it and others don't. If you operate a pure free will mode, then where does the Holy Spirit enter in to things?

It’s the Holy Spirit who draws us in. John 16:8, “And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin...”. World there is the Greek word kosmos. That’s universally inclusive. It’s the Holy Spirit who convicts us, and he will convict all.

Could also be used to promote universalism or a counter to limited atonement.

Could be, but it’s speaking of Christ’s universal sacrifice not man’s universe acceptance.

I'll give you these.



Shows that salvation is not limited to one people group, nothing more.

Isn’t that what we’re talking about?


Shows that faith is not blind.

See above.

Absolutely agree, but that’s eternal security after salvation not a precondition before salvation.

(Accidentally deleted the Spurgeon picture)

Scripture spells out that we are all chosen. Free will dictates whether or not we choose to accept the free gift.

Again, absolutely agree. Ephesians 2:1 “who were dead in trespasses and sins...” If some are predestined to not be saved, then Christ didn’t come to die for all sins, just the sins of the elect, but that’s not what scripture says. II Corinthians 5:15 “And that he died for all...”

I’m terrible at the individual quote thing, so answers in bold above.

 

[JettaKnight]

But that is what we named the son. In reality the father (God) is very prodigal. He spends lavishly on his long lost son. I just finished Keller's book on it "The Prodigal God". It is a very good read and I enjoyed it. It was interesting to see it in that light. Also, the story is about the elder son, not the younger, which I found interesting.

There's so much in that parable that we miss...

 

[JettaKnight]

After doing a study on the Spirit in our small group, I've been trying to ask of Him more often....

-rvb

We should all be praying more to the Holy Spirit.

 

[HoughMade]

But that is what we named the son. In reality the father (God) is very prodigal. He spends lavishly on his long lost son. I just finished Keller's book on it "The Prodigal God". It is a very good read and I enjoyed it. It was interesting to see it in that light. Also, the story is about the elder son, not the younger, which I found interesting.

Well, it's about all of them:

Father = God
"good" son = Israel/ (more broadly, the religious)
"prodigal" son = everyone else

Although there are multiple layers.

With the context of this:

Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus. But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”

I can see how this and the parable of the lost sheep can be seen as responding to the pharisees, which they were, but let's keep in mind that the "tax colllectors and sinners" were also there. To me this means that just as important as the message that the "good" should rejoice when the "bad ones" come home is the message that the "bad ones" are welcome home.

 

[JettaKnight]

It’s the Holy Spirit who draws us in. John 16:8, “And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin...”. World there is the Greek word kosmos. That’s universally inclusive. It’s the Holy Spirit who convicts us, and he will convict all.

If the Holy Spirit persuades convict us, why then am I free? Why does his conviction not work in all?

Conversely, Ryan says that the Spirit comes after conversion.

Shows that salvation is not limited to one people group, nothing more.

Isn’t that what we’re talking about?

Nope. We're talking about individuals. Those passages are about ethnicities.

(Accidentally deleted the Spurgeon picture)

Scripture spells out that we are all chosen. Free will dictates whether or not we choose to accept the free gift.

If we're chosen, then either we have no free will in the matter or or God fails at getting what he chooses.

Again, absolutely agree. Ephesians 2:1 “who were dead in trespasses and sins...” If some are predestined to not be saved, then Christ didn’t come to die for all sins, just the sins of the elect, but that’s not what scripture says. II Corinthians 5:15 “And that he died for all...”

Rotting corpses don't have free will; they can't reach up to take Christ's open hand.

and if you finish the verse, "... that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.", it sounds a whole lot less inclusive. emphasis added.


John MacArthur explains it far better than I can (and I do have to get some work done today).
https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/90-277/the-doctrine-of-actual-atonement-part-1
https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/90-278/the-doctrine-of-actual-atonement-part-2

 

[ChristianPatriot]

Every year I choose all of my kids to get Christmas gifts. If they don’t accept my gift, is that on me or on them?

 

[T.Lex]

I've read the last several posts, hoping to be able to participate.

But I'm not sure I understand what we're talking about.

 

[historian]

I've read the last several posts, hoping to be able to participate.

But I'm not sure I understand what we're talking about.

Functionally how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but for Baptists.

 

[T.Lex]

Functionally how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but for Baptists.

Ah, right.

Then it depends on how many angels WANT to dance, and on whether they all want to dance in the same place at the same time.

Or it depends on how many God intended to dance at the same time at the same place, on the head of that specific pin.

(I did that right, right?)

 

[ChristianPatriot]

Yeah these discussions can drag on. Ok I’ll say my piece and let it be.

Scripture is clear that God chose all. Scripture is clear that Christ died for all. Scripture is clear that the Holy Spirit convicts all. That’s not really up for debate. The Bible says what it says. So God has his end of the deal wrapped up.

Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”

Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

We all have sin. Because we all have sin, we all have earned death. God loved us enough to send his Son as the perfect, spotless sacrifice and satisfy the debt of death that we all owe. John 3:16 says whosoever - the Greek word pas: ​all, any, every. Our eternal life is conditional on our belief. It’s a choice. The free gift is for all. Some choose to believe. Some don’t.

 

[JettaKnight]

]Scripture is clear that God chose who he wants. Scripture is clear that Christ died for who he chose. Scripture is clear that the Holy Spirit convicts who he chose. That’s not really up for debate. The Bible says what it says. So God has his end of the deal wrapped up.

Actually, that's exactly what we were debating.

 

[ChristianPatriot]

Actually, that's exactly what we were debating.

Well then it’s not much of a debate, brother.

 

[JettaKnight]

Well then it’s not much of a debate, brother.

I don't get it.

So... you agree with me?

Are you saying I suck at debating? Probably so, but...

 

[ChristianPatriot]

I don't get it.

So... you agree with me?

Are you saying I suck at debating? Probably so, but...

We can agree to disagree. And by that I mean you can agree to disagree with the Bible.

 

[JettaKnight]

We can agree to disagree. And by that I mean you can agree to disagree with the Bible.

OK. I guess assume that was meant jest.

I hope I haven't offended you.



Maybe we should just change the topic.

 

[rvb]

It appears CP didn't realize JK changed his text in the quote? maybe?

kumbaya my Lord ..... Kumbaya

-rvb