CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[T.Lex]

Yeah, those kinds of things have always interested me, too.

I suspect part of it is marketing. "This is something you already do, but here's WHY you should REALLY be doing it...." and co-opting other traditions that way.

 

[Woobie]

Yeah, those kinds of things have always interested me, too.

I suspect part of it is marketing. "This is something you already do, but here's WHY you should REALLY be doing it...." and co-opting other traditions that way.

Oh absolutely. I've been binge listening to the British History Podcast, and he talks a lot about the conversion of England. There were all kinds of Pagan feasts and festivals that, had you tried to shut them down, you would have wound up with parts of your body stuck on sharp sticks outside of town. So the missionaries and first bishops simply converted those into Christian holidays. The animal sacrifice turned into a meal, and the rites became a mass. Similarly, a lot of the pagan holy sites were repurposed.

It's pretty savvy, I think.

 

[indiucky]

Oh absolutely. I've been binge listening to the British History Podcast, and he talks a lot about the conversion of England. There were all kinds of Pagan feasts and festivals that, had you tried to shut them down, you would have wound up with parts of your body stuck on sharp sticks outside of town. So the missionaries and first bishops simply converted those into Christian holidays. The animal sacrifice turned into a meal, and the rites became a mass. Similarly, a lot of the pagan holy sites were repurposed.

It's pretty savvy, I think.

They missed one...Dang islanders!!!!!

 

[Woobie]

They missed one...Dang islanders!!!!!

Well, there's always that one weirdo. Isn't that right, indiucky?

 

[indiucky]

Well, there's always that one weirdo. Isn't that right, indiucky?

I prefer the term "eccentric".....

Do you have a link to those podcasts??? I've about wore youtube out on Early Britain documentaries.......And my crush on Boudicca remains....

 

[Woobie]

I prefer the term "eccentric".....

We'll go with that

I just found the podcasts on iTunes. But he does have a website. https://www.thebritishhistorypodcast.com/

He starts as far back as we can figure. Doggerland, giant deer and grandma's skeleton on display in the corner. And he works his way through the whole history. I'm around episode 140, and we've just now gotten to the time of Bede c. 725 AD. He's a lawyer, so his research is spot on.

 

[Woobie]

I prefer the term "eccentric".....

Do you have a link to those podcasts??? I've about wore youtube out on Early Britain documentaries.......And my crush on Boudicca remains....

Dang it, every time I edit my post to match your edit, you edit again.

Boudica was hot. We know this. But seriously, she was awesome. As little justice as ancient women get, a few still manage to slip into the story. Raedwold's wife is really cool too.

 

[T.Lex]

Oh absolutely. I've been binge listening to the British History Podcast, and he talks a lot about the conversion of England. There were all kinds of Pagan feasts and festivals that, had you tried to shut them down, you would have wound up with parts of your body stuck on sharp sticks outside of town. So the missionaries and first bishops simply converted those into Christian holidays. The animal sacrifice turned into a meal, and the rites became a mass. Similarly, a lot of the pagan holy sites were repurposed.

It's pretty savvy, I think.

But, as you noted above, too, I suspect it was all part of The Plan.

The people had an imperfect understanding of God. (Not that ours is particularly perfect now, but you know what I mean.) But, their imperfect understanding still charted a path to a better understanding.

 

[indiucky]

Boudica was hot. We know this. But seriously, she was awesome. As little justice as ancient women get, a few still manage to slip into the story. Raedwold's wife is really cool too.

I read a couple of years ago they were doing some building in London and got down to the "Boudica Layer".....Nothing but layer upon layer of charred wood....I thought Alex Kingston played her very well.....She talks about her weapons training for the film.....

[video=youtube;eAccbQJahbM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAccbQJahbM[/video]

 

[JettaKnight]

It seems that Lent has become more of a work, and tradition than an actual sacrifice.

Nah, I think Lent is more of a social club - Let me join the cool kids and give up something them tell everyone I'm giving it up; it's not a sacrifice unless you Tweet it.

You tell people over and over, "not by your works", yet they still try and work their way to Heaven...


Well, that's how this Protestant see it. (BTW, I'm giving up the Pope for Lent)


PS - Indiucky, I love The Wicker Man!

 

[indiucky]

But, as you noted above, too, I suspect it was all part of The Plan.

The people had an imperfect understanding of God. (Not that ours is particularly perfect now, but you know what I mean.) But, their imperfect understanding still charted a path to a better understanding.

You saw that with the natives here as well.....One God (Great Spirit)....There is a story that in Saint Louis about 1830 a native Shaman journeyed all the way to Saint Louis from the Pacific Northwest...At the time the fur trade was going on and they wanted to curry his favor and they asked what prompted him to make such an arduous journey? He replied, "I understand the Great Spirit wrote a book and I want a copy so as we to better understand His will..."

Here it is....

[h=3]In the year of our Lord 1803 the United States had bought a tract of land larger than the original United States from the French. Most of the area was unexplored and there was hope of a possible water route to the Pacific Ocean from the Missouri River. President Jefferson sent a team out to explore the region.
The Lewis and Clark expedition started from St. Louis and eventually ended at the Pacific Ocean. During their trip back home they stayed for a time with the Nez Perce Indians while they waited for the snow to melt. While they were with the Nez Perce, the men would talk with the Indians at campfires and share information about the world, the United States and about the Holy Bible. They called the Bible the “Book from Heaven”. They believed that one day someone would come to their tribe and bring to them the message of Heaven. Year after year they waited, but no one came.
After 25 years, the Nez Perce decided that since no white man had come, then they would go in search of this “Book from Heaven.” They chose five of their bravest men one of which would come back after two days. Their names were:[/h]

• Black Eagle
• Man of the Morning
• Rabbit Skin Leggins
• No Horn on His Head

[h=3] For over a thousand miles these four men traveled over the great Rocky Mountains through forest and trackless plains. In October of 1831, they came to St. Louis where they were told they could meet with William Clark of the Lewis and Clark expedition. Once they met it was weeks before they announced that their reason for being there was their search for the “Book from Heaven.” General Clark had no Bible that they could possibly understand nor did he know of anyone who would go with them to take back the message of the Gospel. Some weeks later, Black Eagle died and not long after him, Man of the Morning followed him, too, in death.
By the spring of the next year, with only two of them left, they made ready for their long trip back home. General Clark gave them a banquet at his home. During the dinner Clark asked No Horns on the Head to say a few words. The following words from this quiet man were to be captured on paper. They were never to be forgotten from those who heard them.[/h][FONT=&quot] "I came to you over the trail of many moons, from the setting sun. I came with one eye partly open for my people who sit in darkness. I go back with both eyes closed. How can I go back blind to my blind people? I made my way to you with strong arms through many enemies and strange lands that I might carry much back to them. I go back with both arms broken and empty. Two fathers came with us; they were braves of many snows and wars. We leave them asleep here by your great water and tepees. They were tired in many moons and their moccasins wore out...[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My people sent me to get the White Man’s Book of Heaven. You took me to where you allow your women to dance as we do not ours, and the Book was not there. You worship the Great Spirit with candles, and the Book was not there. You showed me the images of the Great Spirit and the Good Land beyond, but the Book was not among them. You make my feet heavy with gifts and my moccasins will grow old carrying them, yet the Book is not among them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"When I tell my poor blind people after one more snow, in the big council, that I did not bring the Book, no word will be spoken by our old men or by our young braves. One by one they will rise up and go out in silence. My people will die in darkness and they will go on a long path to other hunting grounds. No White Man will go with them, and no White Man’s Book of Heaven will make the way plain. I have no more words."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] The speech is found in William Barrow’s 1883 book, “Oregon: The Struggle for Possession.” According to one source, Barrow was there when the speech was made.
When they left, No Horns on the Head died near the mouth of the Yellowstone River. Rabbit Skin Leggins was the only one of the four to make it back. Within a year, he was killed in a battle with the Blackfeet Indians.[/FONT]

 

[T.Lex]

Nah, I think Lent is more of a social club - Let me join the cool kids and give up something them tell everyone I'm giving it up; it's not a sacrifice unless you Tweet it.

Yeah, that's a pet peeve of mine. This is a personal thing; not a public thing.

You tell people over and over, "not by your works", yet they still try and work their way to Heaven...

I'm ignoring that for Lent.

 

[Woobie]

But, as you noted above, too, I suspect it was all part of The Plan.

The people had an imperfect understanding of God. (Not that ours is particularly perfect now, but you know what I mean.) But, their imperfect understanding still charted a path to a better understanding.

Ecclesiastes 3:11 tells us that God has "set the World in their hearts." Romans 1 tells us that God has revealed Himself in creation, but that in ignorance man chose idolatry and error. But that ignorance is not excused.

So Stone Age Britons were probably trying to worship God, but I don't think the human sacrifices were accepted. And Anglo-Saxon pagans setting shrines to Wodin or Thunor were trying to sacrifice to God, but ignorance did not excuse their idolatry.

 

[Woobie]

You saw that with the natives here as well.....One God (Great Spirit)....There is a story that in Saint Louis about 1830 a native Shaman journeyed all the way to Saint Louis from the Pacific Northwest...At the time the fur trade was going on and they wanted to curry his favor and they asked what prompted him to make such an arduous journey? He replied, "I understand the Great Spirit wrote a book and I want a copy so as we to better understand His will..."

Here it is....

In the year of our Lord 1803 the United States had bought a tract of land larger than the original United States from the French. Most of the area was unexplored and there was hope of a possible water route to the Pacific Ocean from the Missouri River. President Jefferson sent a team out to explore the region.
The Lewis and Clark expedition started from St. Louis and eventually ended at the Pacific Ocean. During their trip back home they stayed for a time with the Nez Perce Indians while they waited for the snow to melt. While they were with the Nez Perce, the men would talk with the Indians at campfires and share information about the world, the United States and about the Holy Bible. They called the Bible the “Book from Heaven”. They believed that one day someone would come to their tribe and bring to them the message of Heaven. Year after year they waited, but no one came.
After 25 years, the Nez Perce decided that since no white man had come, then they would go in search of this “Book from Heaven.” They chose five of their bravest men one of which would come back after two days. Their names were:

• Black Eagle
• Man of the Morning
• Rabbit Skin Leggins
• No Horn on His Head

For over a thousand miles these four men traveled over the great Rocky Mountains through forest and trackless plains. In October of 1831, they came to St. Louis where they were told they could meet with William Clark of the Lewis and Clark expedition. Once they met it was weeks before they announced that their reason for being there was their search for the “Book from Heaven.” General Clark had no Bible that they could possibly understand nor did he know of anyone who would go with them to take back the message of the Gospel. Some weeks later, Black Eagle died and not long after him, Man of the Morning followed him, too, in death.
By the spring of the next year, with only two of them left, they made ready for their long trip back home. General Clark gave them a banquet at his home. During the dinner Clark asked No Horns on the Head to say a few words. The following words from this quiet man were to be captured on paper. They were never to be forgotten from those who heard them.

[FONT=&amp] "I came to you over the trail of many moons, from the setting sun. I came with one eye partly open for my people who sit in darkness. I go back with both eyes closed. How can I go back blind to my blind people? I made my way to you with strong arms through many enemies and strange lands that I might carry much back to them. I go back with both arms broken and empty. Two fathers came with us; they were braves of many snows and wars. We leave them asleep here by your great water and tepees. They were tired in many moons and their moccasins wore out...[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]My people sent me to get the White Man’s Book of Heaven. You took me to where you allow your women to dance as we do not ours, and the Book was not there. You worship the Great Spirit with candles, and the Book was not there. You showed me the images of the Great Spirit and the Good Land beyond, but the Book was not among them. You make my feet heavy with gifts and my moccasins will grow old carrying them, yet the Book is not among them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]"When I tell my poor blind people after one more snow, in the big council, that I did not bring the Book, no word will be spoken by our old men or by our young braves. One by one they will rise up and go out in silence. My people will die in darkness and they will go on a long path to other hunting grounds. No White Man will go with them, and no White Man’s Book of Heaven will make the way plain. I have no more words."[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp] The speech is found in William Barrow’s 1883 book, “Oregon: The Struggle for Possession.” According to one source, Barrow was there when the speech was made.
When they left, No Horns on the Head died near the mouth of the Yellowstone River. Rabbit Skin Leggins was the only one of the four to make it back. Within a year, he was killed in a battle with the Blackfeet Indians.[/FONT]

Then you get stories like this. By the way, thanks Indiucky, I hadn't heard this one before. And it is truly amazing, and heartbreaking. This still goes on. People having dreams about Christ and then a missionary shows up, for instance.

In observing the "invisible things of God that are clearly seen by that which is made" man can receive and worship God, though through, as it were, a glass darkly.

I hate to make a law reference, but we know that ignorance is no excuse for the law. I look at it like this: if I knew nothing of a law against murder, I could still observe that law. But if I commit murder, my ignorance of that law is no excuse. Now Christ has fulfilled -The Law-, but this is the best parallel I can think of, shooting from the hip.

 

[JettaKnight]

You know, Jesus actually came to the Americas. I'd like to share with you a another book from God...

 

[indiucky]

[video=youtube;LrBIm1zKhW4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrBIm1zKhW4[/video]

When we first moved back to Clarksville about 15 years ago I saw some LDS boys walking up the street and got prepared...I dressed in my longhunter garb (as in my avatar,) grabbed my Long Rifle, pouch and horn....Before they could even ring the door bell I flung the door open in full regalia....

"DID JOSEPH SMITH SEND YOU????"

"Uh....."

(louder)

"I SAID, DID JOSEPH SMITH SEND YOU???"

"Uh...Kinda...I guess..."

"Okay...Well he already tried with me in '36...I didn't buy it then and I ain't buying it now...Can't stand New Yorkers..."

 

[Woobie]

[video=youtube;LrBIm1zKhW4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrBIm1zKhW4[/video]

When we first moved back to Clarksville about 15 years ago I saw some LDS boys walking up the street and got prepared...I dressed in my longhunter garb (as in my avatar,) grabbed my Long Rifle, pouch and horn....Before they could even ring the door bell I flung the door open in full regalia....

"DID JOSEPH SMITH SEND YOU????"

"Uh....."

(louder)

"I SAID, DID JOSEPH SMITH SEND YOU???"

"Uh...Kinda...I guess..."

"Okay...Well he already tried with me in '36...I didn't buy it then and I ain't buying it now...Can't stand New Yorkers..."

No you didn't.






You really did that, didn't you?

 

[Honey_and_Vinegar]

Nah, I think Lent is more of a social club - Let me join the cool kids and give up something them tell everyone I'm giving it up; it's not a sacrifice unless you Tweet it.

You tell people over and over, "not by your works", yet they still try and work their way to Heaven...


Well, that's how this Protestant see it. (BTW, I'm giving up the Pope for Lent)


PS - Indiucky, I love The Wicker Man!

Yes... It seems Lent has become a new years resolution.

"I gave up soda for Lent". Is soda interfering with your walk with the Lord?

 

[T.Lex]

Yes... It seems Lent has become a new years resolution.

"I gave up soda for Lent". Is soda interfering with your walk with the Lord?

If someone usually drinks a lot of soda during the day, perhaps even relies on it to stay awake for certain obligatory meetings, and they give it up as a sacrifice such that when they would usually drink the soda, they instead remind themselves of Christ's infinitely more important sacrifice... then it isn't a matter of whether it interferes with one's relationship with the Lord. Rather, it is a matter of using an earthly device to become more aware of Christ's work in our lives.

And, to the extent it helps us be healthier, that's more consistent with God's wish for us, too.

It is a personal matter. Nearly impossible to discern if someone isn't doing it "right." (Well, there may be some obvious examples of doing it "wrong.")

 

[JettaKnight]

Seems fitting.
Op-Ed: Oh, You Made Resolutions? That's Cute.