CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[rvb]

I use this version:
https://www.bible.com/kids

[ok, honestly, been using that at storytime with the kids for a long time... they've almost out grown it now...]

-rvb

 

[foszoe]

Buy whatever Bible version you will read. Never make a doctrinal decision based on it.

 

[JettaKnight]

At the risk of being too confrontational, how is this not praying to, and requesting supernatural works from, a dead person?

https://www.npr.org/2018/01/18/578800257/pet-blessing-in-spain

At on point, a parishioner states, "I prayed to St. Tony..." to heal his pet.

Yes, I know it's suppose to be St. Tony interceding on behalf of pets, but that's a fine line. And if you can just pray to Jesus on your own, why the middle man? Is there a belief that Jesus doesn't listen to you or love you enough to answer your prayers? Where does the concept that you need a intercessor? Sounds like a DC lobbyist to me. Are their competing lobbies? How does one get one of these lobby jobs? (Answer is the Pope, right?)

So, if the Pope is down here, and Jesus and the Intercessor is up there... how do we really know that the people we have and have not canonized are legit? I mean, what if we missed someone and that guy or gal is is sitting at a desk in heaven, bored out of their eternal skull because no one is ringing their prayer hotline?

And what about the one that was falsely canonized? Perhaps their home phone keeps ringing during their heavenly supper (bacon, amiright?) And they keep yelling, "you got the wrong guy, Jesus doesn't listen to me!"


And does it still work if you're praying to an action figure?
Grandma accidentally prays to Elrond from Lord of the Rings - BBC Newsbeat

 

[T.Lex]

Many Catholics are lax with their descriptions.

How many Protestants properly understand/use the various redeemed/saved nuances?

The foundation, though, is asking for those who have united with God in Heaven to seek intercession on our behalf.

 

[JettaKnight]

And for more Dr. Moore...

[video=youtube;ehzVQuVDLD0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehzVQuVDLD0[/video]

I really don't understand what the KJV-only crowd have against this guy, other than he's the one questioning the Pharisees. Nothing he's ever said has ever led to believe that he would bend the truth, or soften it, for one minute.

One thing that really stuck me from his sermon was that the church should not only be ministering to the poor and sick, but be ministered from the poor and the sick.

 

[Alpo]

Many Catholics are lax with their descriptions.

How many Protestants properly understand/use the various redeemed/saved nuances?

The foundation, though, is asking for those who have united with God in Heaven to seek intercession on our behalf.

At least the RC's dance. And dance well.

 

[JettaKnight]

Many Catholics are lax with their descriptions.

How many Protestants properly understand/use the various redeemed/saved nuances?

The foundation, though, is asking for those who have united with God in Heaven to seek intercession on our behalf.

But why are some "more in with Jesus" than others?

Although I want to, I think it would be unfair to ask you to cite scriptural basis.

 

[T.Lex]

At least the RC's dance. And dance well.

My RC wife would disagree whether my RC dance moves are legit. Too legit to quit.

But why are some "more in with Jesus" than others?

Although I want to, I think it would be unfair to ask you to cite scriptural basis.

Second point first: when I have time, I will. I think I did that awhile back when this got heated.

First point second: I don't think I understand the question. It is a somewhat binary thing - you is or you aint. It happens after purgatory. If you don't make it to purgatory, you ain't ever gonna make it to heaven (the end times possibly excepted from that and any sort of final miracle of mercy by God).

Certain saints are more connected to certain human issues. It isn't that they are closer to God, they just have pet projects. It may also be important to note that it doesn't have to be a canonized saint. Two particular relatives that I'm close to passed away and I pray for their assistance (in an intercessory way) in certain matters.

 

[JettaKnight]

At least the RC's dance. And dance well.

...straight to hell.
Unforgivable Sin Actually Dancing, Baptist Scholar Claims

 

[Alpo]

Being an agnostic tap dancer has it's upside.

 

[JettaKnight]

Second point first: when I have time, I will. I think I did that awhile back when this got heated.

Yeah, let's agree we just cut this off if the temperature starts to elevate.

First point second: I don't think I understand the question. It is a somewhat binary thing - you is or you aint. It happens after purgatory. If you don't make it to purgatory, you ain't ever gonna make it to heaven (the end times possibly excepted from that and any sort of final miracle of mercy by God).

Certain saints are more connected to certain human issues. It isn't that they are closer to God, they just have pet projects. It may also be important to note that it doesn't have to be a canonized saint. Two particular relatives that I'm close to passed away and I pray for their assistance (in an intercessory way) in certain matters.

So everyone in heaven is listening for prayers? I'm not sure it that makes it more or less weird.


It's still less creepy than hearing people say, "Oh, I know grandma is now in heaven watching me!" Really? The thought that heaven is filled with a bunch of peeping toms is a horrible thought! Anyone ever play The Sims? Do I get blurry (and hopefully muted) when I ... um, ... yeah.

 

[T.Lex]

Yeah, let's agree we just cut this off if the temperature starts to elevate.

Agreed.

Let's just say that the personalities involved in that conversation were perhaps not as keen on keeping the temperature low. And, the whole religion-as-a-topic thing was new.

So everyone in heaven is listening for prayers? I'm not sure it that makes it more or less weird.

It's still less creepy than hearing people say, "Oh, I know grandma is now in heaven watching me!" Really? The thought that heaven is filled with a bunch of peeping toms is a horrible thought! Anyone ever play The Sims? Do I get blurry (and hopefully muted) when I ... um, ... yeah.

So, let's start with the proposition that none of us have seen behind that veil so as to have a clear understanding of the mechanics of it.

If God knows everything and we become united with God and share in His understanding, then yes - grandma is dialed in.

Now, for me, that also means plugged into grace and understanding of human nature, sin, and all the stuff that we don't really understand. We know about it, and can sometimes intuit it, but I submit our level of "understanding" is quite low.

They can know, but they also want us to make good choices to join them in God's love.

 

[foszoe]

Saints

Prayer, Prepositions, and Saints

Saint. A simple word with a history. Its roots are in the Latin word, Sanctus. Most churchgoers have encountered someone in their lives that they considered holy or saintly. All who make it to heaven are holy and saints through the grace of God. So we come to the questions that often arise between Christians: Who is a Saint? Why then are some Saints celebrated with days on the church calendar and hymns composed in their honor? What purpose does this honor serve? What is their relationship to us? Finally, why do we converse with the Saints?

Who is a Saint?

As described above, saint means in its root, holy. There is a complication though. Sanctus was a Latin translation of the Greek word, agion, or hagios. This word appears 229 times according to Strong's concordance and is translated as Holy (161 times), saints (61), Holy One (4) and miscellaneous (3). So as usual in language we see words can have varied shades of meaning.For our purposes though I believe we can simply say that when the word saint is applied to a person, it means someone who is holy.

Here though we encounter our first question. Who is a saint? If we agree on the simple language thoughts from above it means someone who is holy. Now we encounter our first “stumbling block”. How does one become holy, and who decides that one is holy? I call this a stumbling block but it is really more of a speed bump because I am going to attempt to use “common sense” to drive around it. If however an objection is raised, we can revisit this.

I can ask different Christians what it takes to become a saint and receive a wide variety of answers ranging from “Ask Jesus to be your Personal Savior” in evangelical circles to a laundry list of items to become a canonized saint in the Catholic Church. The Orthodox approach is neither and I am going to go out on a limb and say that even evangelicals differentiate between people. So while we all would say that God is the final judge on who is holy, that there are some people who, to our observations are “more holy” then others. We all know them. They are the ones whose prayers seemed to tug at our heart strings. Those who when they talked or testified about God's actions in their life we listened and were inspired. They seemed to have a quote from the bible in every situation and never seemed to take their eyes off of God no matter what the circumstances of life. If we think hard enough, we can probably remember shooting star “saints” that seemed to light up the sky but faded away, then we remember others who after a conversion experience radically changed their lifestyle and when they passed on left no doubt in our minds about their eternal destinations, not because of a death bed conversion but because of a life long example. It is this latter group of which I speak. In Orthodoxy, the path to sainthood, begins with the recognition of holiness in a person by those that surrounded the “saint”. As time passes, there is a possibility that the person becomes recognized by the Church as a Saint. Does this mean that the number of saints are limited to those in a “Church Calendar” somewhere? No! The Church simply recognizes that there are a number of saints whose lives became exemplary to all and wishes to hold up as examples for the rest of us.

Saints, Calendars, and Hymns

Ok so we have a Saint. Someone recognized by the Church as an example. What do we do with this light? Do we hide it under a bushel? No! We're gonna let it shine. How best to let it shine? Well in Orthodoxy its a little easier because we are so “structured”. Each day we are “used” to looking at a calendar to determine what portion of scripture is designated to be read that day. This doesn't mean you can't read whatever you want also, but we leave that discussion for another day. So if you have all your believers looking at a calendar anyway for scripture readings, then why not add some “example” saints to the calendar also? Thats exactly what we do. We have it easier than those not used to looking at a calendar but we are by no means unique in attempting to honor saints. For the Reformers, Foxes book of Maryters is an all time classic. Interestingly the beginning of this book shares many saints with the Orthodox. At one point in time, this book was on many bookshelves but I don't know how many take the time to read it anymore. The lives of the saints provide inspiration to all Christians: Protestants, Catholic, and Orthodox. Its just that in Orthodoxy, we have taken the next step and formalized the process some. Imagine that!

Ok, so it is easy to understand that we all have a common heritage of looking up to saints, but what about composing hymns in their honor? This common objection often comes from those who have never really taken the time to read a sampling of the hymns. So I will take some saints many have heard of or should have, and give the troparion and kontakion of their Saint's Days.

St Stephen

Bible: Acts 6-7. Read It!

Foxes Book of Martyrs

St. Stephen suffered the next in order. His death was occasioned by the faithful manner in which he preached the Gospel to the betrayers and murderers of Christ. To such a degree of madness were they excited, that they cast him out of the city and stoned him to death. The time when he suffered is generally supposed to have been at the passover which succeeded to that of our Lord's crucifixion, and to the era of his ascension, in the following spring.
Upon this a great persecution was raised against all who professed their belief in Christ as the Messiah, or as a prophet. We are immediately told by St. Luke, that "there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem;" and that "they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles."
About two thousand Christians, with Nicanor, one of the seven deacons, suffered martyrdom during the "persecution that arose about Stephen”

Orthodox Hymns
Troparion - Tone 4 O Protomartyr and mighty warrior of Christ our God, You are victorious in battle and crowned with glory, O holy Stephen! You confounded the council of your persecutors, Beholding your Savior enthroned at the right hand of the Father. Never cease to intercede for the salvation of our souls!
Kontakion - Tone 3 Yesterday the Master assumed our flesh and became our guest; Today His servant is stoned to death and departs in the flesh, The glorious Protomartyr Stephen.

(Note St Stephen is Celebrated just after Christmas which is why the reference is made to the “Master assumed our flesh”.)

Apostle James the Brother of St John the Theologian
Bible
Acts 12
Herod’s Violence to the Church
1 Now about that time Herod the king stretched out his hand to harass some from the church. 2 Then he killed James the brother of John with the sword. 3 And because he saw that it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to seize Peter also. Now it was during the Days of Unleavened Bread. 4 So when he had arrested him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four squads of soldiers to keep him, intending to bring him before the people after Passover.
Foxes Book of Martyrs
III. James the Great
The next martyr we meet with, according to St. Luke, in the History of the Apsotles' Acts, was James the son of Zebedee, the elder brother of John, and a relative of our Lord; for his mother Salome was cousin-german to the Virgin Mary. It was not until ten years after the death of Stephen that the second martyrdom took place; for no sooner had Herod Agrippa been appointed governor of Judea, than, with a view to ingratiate himself with them, he raised a sharp persecution against the Christians, and determined to make an effectual blow, by striking at their leaders. The account given us by an eminent primitive writer, Clemens Alexandrinus, ought not to be overlooked; that, as James was led to the place of martyrdom, his accuser was brought to repent of his conduct by the apostle's extraordinary courage and undauntedness, and fell down at his feet to request his pardon, professing himself a Christian, and resolving that James should not receive the crown of martyrdom alone. Hence they were both beheaded at the same time. Thus did the first apostolic martyr cheerfully and resolutely receive that cup, which he had told our Savior he was ready to drink. Timon and Parmenas suffered martyrdom about the same time; the one at Philippi, and the other in Macedonia. These events took place in AD 44.

(Note the writer cited, Clemens Alexandrinus (Clement of Alexandria, the teacher of Origen). Even Fox's book thought that Oral traditions regarding the saints should at least be considered.)

Orthodox Hymnology

Troparion - Tone 8 As a soldier of the Lord you were ranked among the choir of apostles. Together with your brother, O James, you clung wholeheartedly to the Savior. Armed with the power of the Spirit you preached him to all and were slain by the sword. Therefore we sing your praises!
Troparion - Tone 3 You were a chosen apostle of Christ And the only brother of the beloved Theologian. Most praised James, ask remission of sins and great mercy For those who sing hymns to you.
Kontakion - Tone 2 You heard the voice of God calling you And turned away from the love of your father. With your brother you hastened after Christ, O glorious James. With him, you were counted worthy to behold the Lord's divine Transfiguration!

(Note how the hymnology calls to mind the calling of James, significant events in his life, his manner of death, and for more than the casual reader, also invites learning, who is his brother? Who else witnessed the transfiguration?)

I could cite more examples, but I cite just one more. One that is not biblical.

Foxes Book of Martyrs

Polycarp, the venerable bishop of Smyrna, hearing that persons were seeking for him, escaped, but was discovered by a child. After feasting the guards who apprehended him, he desired an hour in prayer, which being allowed, he prayed with such fervency, that his guards repented that they had been instrumental in taking him. He was, however, carried before the proconsul, condemned, and burnt in the market place.
The proconsul then urged him, saying, "Swear, and I will release thee;--reproach Christ."
Polycarp answered, "Eighty and six years have I served him, and he never once wronged me; how then shall I blaspheme my King, Who hath saved me?" At the stake to which he was only tied, but not nailed as usual, as he assured them he should stand immovable, the flames, on their kindling the fagots, encircled his body, like an arch, without touching him; and the executioner, on seeing this, was ordered to pierce him with a sword, when so great a quantity of blood flowed out as extinguished the fire. But his body, at the instigation of the enemies of the Gospel, especially Jews, was ordered to be consumed in the pile, and the request of his friends, who wished to give it Christian burial, rejected. They nevertheless collected his bones and as much of his remains as possible, and caused them to be decently interred.

Orthodox Hymnology

Troparion - Tone 4 By sharing in the ways of the Apostles, you became a successor to their throne. Through the practice of virtue, you found the way to divine contemplation, O inspired one of God; by teaching the word of truth without error, you defended the Faith, even to the shedding of your blood. Hieromartyr Polycarp, entreat Christ God to save our souls.
Kontakion - Tone 1 Through virtues, you offered spiritual fruit to the Lord, therefore, you were glorified as a worthy hierarch, wise Polycarp. Today, we who have been enlightened by your words extol in song your praise-worthy memory, there-by giving glory to the Lord.
(Note again how the short verses about Polycarp give us enough detail to know he was a bishop (successor to their throne), defended the faith, and was martyred, but for the more than nominal Orthodox, also arouse enough curiosity that we should want to know a little more about this person)




I included the above so that when one hears the phrase “Saint so and so is commemorated today”, that one has an idea what this means. So to answer our original questions, we honor saints with days on the calendar and hymns because they are our examples. They are luminaries that light up the Way (Way was not just a word but also an early method of referring to Christians, hence I capitalize it here) The hymns should not only honor the saints but to arouse curiosity about them and a desire to emulate them in their struggles for Christ. If the hymn succeeds in this endeavor then we will read about the life of the saint in a desire to learn more about them and the Church provides us with these also. We can read a short life of the saint which takes less than 5 minutes or we can find longer accounts of their lives. Either way immersing ourselves in the reading of the bible and the lives of the saints leaves less time for immersing ourselves in the tube and other entertainments that do not draw the heart to God.

What is the relationship of a Saint to Us?

Here we begin to encounter difficulties because different schools of thought in Christianity collide here. For many, death somehow separates the Saint from the Body of Christ. Some might object to stating it this way, but if they take the time to really analyze their beliefs, they would have to agree with me.

So what is the Body of Christ? Lets turn to the Tradition of the Church as preserved in Holy Scripture

1 Corinthians 12,

12 For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into[c] one Spirit. 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.
15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best[d] gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.




Romans 12

3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

Ephesians 4

1 I, therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you to walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, 2 with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, 3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you[a] all. 7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:
“ When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first[c] descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

In Orthodox understanding, the Body of Christ is the Church. Those who are joined to the Body of Christ in this life are not separated from it in the next. For God is the God of the Living. (Luke 20:38)
So we would say that because a Saint has passed from this life to the next, the participation in the Body of Christ does not cease. How does this happen? We ask Saints for their intercessions. How do we know this to be true? The Tradition of the Church. Many have seen visions of the saints and been assisted by them.

That brings me to the final point I wish to make. Many object to the intercession of the saints with the view that they can go to God alone. That is true, but that doesn't discount the effective fervent prayer of a righteous man. Remember the Saints are no longer bothered by the cares of this world and do not suffer from our distractions.

Many who raise this objection also seem to believe that we spend countless minutes or hours praying “to” saints. Prepositions mean a lot sometimes. There is a big difference between asking for the intercessions of saints and praying “to” saints. I trust that one can discern the difference, so I will instead quickly address the time factor.

In the above hymns, one can see in the hymns a calling to rememberance, the pointing to a saint as an example and in most hymns as I cited above, the saint is asked to “entreat for us”, “intercede for us”, “ask for us”, but who are they asked to entreat, intercede, or ask? Christ God! The hymns don't ask for James or Polycarp to come fix our problems themselves but to go before God on our behalf. This is no different then the prayer request given to those Christians around us! During the services of the Church the Tropars or Kontaks are perhaps 3-5 minutes of the whole service! We don't spend 30 minutes asking a saint to do anything, but rather honor their service to Christ, call them to remembrance as an example and ask them to pray “for” us. And the asking to pray for us is usually about 5-10 words out of the whole hymn composed to their honor so that it forms only a small part of the hymn itself much less the service which we are attending. Perhaps 30 seconds of the 5 minutes spent honoring them is asking them to pray for us.

Now what about our personal prayer life? Usually when turning to someone here on earth to ask for prayer, I spend a few minutes detailing why so I see no problem doing the same when asking the saints for intercessions in our own prayer life. They love us and care for us too.

 

[T.Lex]

Hey Jetta,

I had an unbillable break and revisited the biblical authority issue.

But first, and foszoe can jump in more authoritatively than I can on this, but an important data point is that the early church saw it more like Catholics do. That death is a kind of change in phase, but not in substance for our souls. So, that which makes us human - our souls - continues on after death. Praying now is no different than praying after death.

This looks like a fairly comprehensive site:
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-bible-supports-praying-to-the-saints

This has a bunch of bible cites.
https://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints-and-intercessory-prayer/

Sorry for not offering the fruits of my own biblical research and contemplation on it.

ETA:
HAHA

Saw foszoe already offered his perspective, which I appreciate.

 

[indiucky]

I learn so much from you gentlemen...Thank you all for your posts.....

 

[rvb]

But why are some "more in with Jesus" than others?

Although I want to, I think it would be unfair to ask you to cite scriptural basis.

once upon a time I was curious about this and simply put google to use. I recall saints being mentioned many times in an earthly sense (eg saints who Saul persecuted in Acts). The prayers of the saints is referenced in revelation. I wasn't able to connect the dots scripturally to praying to the saints, other than perhaps an idea that if the saint's prayers are heard by Christ before all others upon his return, then we want them to put in a good word for us? interested in the answer.

-rvb

 

[historian]

We've been reading the Heidelberg Catechism with the kids over the year. We are on 37/52. This topic just came up a few weeks ago.

Q & A 95

[FONT=&amp]Q. What is idolatry?
A. Idolatry is
having or inventing something in which one trusts
in place of or alongside of the only true God,
who has revealed himself in the Word.1
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]1 1 Chron. 16:26; Gal. 4:8-9; Eph. 5:5; Phil. 3:19[/FONT]
Lord’s Day 35

Q & A 96

[FONT=&amp]Q. What is God’s will for us
in the second commandment?
A. That we in no way make any image of God1
nor worship him in any other way
than has been commanded in God’s Word.2
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]1 Deut. 4:15-19; Isa. 40:18-25; Acts 17:29; Rom. 1:22-23
2 Lev. 10:1-7; 1 Sam. 15:22-23; John 4:23-24[/FONT]
Q & A 97

[FONT=&amp]Q. May we then not make
any image at all?
A. God can not and may not
be visibly portrayed in any way.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]Although creatures may be portrayed,
yet God forbids making or having such images
if one’s intention is to worship them
or to serve God through them.1
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]1 Ex. 34:13-14, 17; 2 Kings 18:4-5[/FONT]
Q & A 98

[FONT=&amp]Q. But may not images be permitted in churches
in place of books for the unlearned?
A. No, we should not try to be wiser than God.
God wants the Christian community instructed
by the living preaching of his Word—1
not by idols that cannot even talk.2
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]1 Rom. 10:14-15, 17; 2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Pet. 1:19
2 Jer. 10:8; Hab. 2:18-20

[/FONT]
Q & A 102

[FONT=&amp]Q. May we also swear by saints or other creatures?
A. No.
A legitimate oath means calling upon God
as the only one who knows my heart
to witness to my truthfulness
and to punish me if I swear falsely.1
No creature is worthy of such honor.2
[/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]1 Rom. 9:1; 2 Cor. 1:23
2 Matt. 5:34-37; 23:16-22; James 5:12
[/FONT]

 

[JettaKnight]

Thanks, my non-protestant brothers!

I'll read these when I find enough free time, until then I shall say no more on the issue.


(well, after this)

once upon a time I was curious about this and simply put google to use. I recall saints being mentioned many times in an earthly sense (eg saints who Saul persecuted in Acts). The prayers of the saints is referenced in revelation. I wasn't able to connect the dots scripturally to praying to the saints, other than perhaps an idea that if the saint's prayers are heard by Christ before all others upon his return, then we want them to put in a good word for us? interested in the answer.

-rvb

Yeah, but I think we generally agree that "saints" is a term that's analogous with the modern term "Christian", not a formal promotion standing apart from the hoi polloi.




PS - Anyone going to the Brant & Sherri / Misfits concert on Saturday? If so, stop by the sound booth!

 

[T.Lex]

Thanks, my non-protestant brothers!

I'll read these when I find enough free time, until then I shall say no more on the issue.

Dude. This is still INGO. Actual knowledge or expertise isn't required to post.

 

[rvb]

Yeah, but I think we generally agree that "saints" is a term that's analogous with the modern term "Christian", not a formal promotion standing apart from the hoi polloi.

that's how it always read to me, eg Paul in Acts 26: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, ... and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them [KJV]