Can you spot the felon?

[MrsGungho]

There are obvious and tremendous factual differences between selling a single firearm on Ingo and bringing dozens of them to a gun show and renting a table on which to sell them.



I never said that it was illegal to buy a gun and sell it at a profit. But admitting that you do not have a job and that you are selling a gun at a profit at a gun show sure makes the question much easier to answer as to whether you're supporting yourself with income from firearm sales.

There is no specific number of firearms one needs to sell in order to be a dealer. It could be as low as one.

the intent to buy then turn around and sell for profit has to be there in order to make you a dealer.
Just because someone is out of work and selling a gun for profit does not mean he is making a living off of the gun. Many members of the gun community have fallen on hard times once or twice in their lives. They have sold guns to make ends meet, at a profit. This does not make them a dealer as the original intent was to buy the gun for themselves.

 

[E5RANGER375]

the intent to buy then turn around and sell for profit has to be there in order to make you a dealer.
Just because someone is out of work and selling a gun for profit does not mean he is making a living off of the gun. Many members of the gun community have fallen on hard times once or twice in their lives. They have sold guns to make ends meet, at a profit. This does not make them a dealer as the original intent was to buy the gun for themselves.

its nice to hear such a comment from a legit and reputable dealer!! rep coming to you when i get some.

 

[downzero]

If I deceide to take my 37 guns and sell them @ a gun show they are still my privatly owned guns.

I agree totally. But if you are supporting yourself, even partially, from buying and selling guns, you are a dealer and must be licensed (from my understanding of the statute).

Like I said guys, I'm not making a normative statement, but merely a positive one. If you are buying and selling guns for profit and to support your income in any way, you could be accused of dealing under the Gun Control Act.

The Brady Campaign has, for years, been pointing out cases where people already violated existing law to get a gun when they otherwise wouldn't have been able to do so.

This is no different if the seller is an unlicensed dealer. As far as I'm concerned, the best response to the Brady Campaign isn't, "yeah, so what, it's a private transaction." The best response is, "if that transaction was being made by an unlicensed dealer, you already broke the law. What good is the law if it's broad enough to make that conduct illegal, yet criminals can choose not to follow it anyway, assuring its irrelevance?"

 

[downzero]

the intent to buy then turn around and sell for profit has to be there in order to make you a dealer.
Just because someone is out of work and selling a gun for profit does not mean he is making a living off of the gun. Many members of the gun community have fallen on hard times once or twice in their lives. They have sold guns to make ends meet, at a profit. This does not make them a dealer as the original intent was to buy the gun for themselves.

If what you say is completely true, (that everything hinges on intent, which from my understanding of the statute is not the case) then it would be up to a jury--a third party--to determine what your "intent" was after the fact. I see all sorts of problems with that, especially since we're talking about a felony criminal trial here.

If all that really mattered was your "intent," you better hope the wrong people aren't on the jury or you could end up locked up for an awfully long time.

 

[E5RANGER375]

i think the best response to the brady ....................... ah never mind

 

[E5RANGER375]

If what you say is completely true, (that everything hinges on intent, which from my understanding of the statute is not the case) then it would be up to a jury--a third party--to determine what your "intent" was after the fact. I see all sorts of problems with that, especially since we're talking about a felony criminal trial here.

If all that really mattered was your "intent," you better hope the wrong people aren't on the jury or you could end up locked up for an awfully long time.

i see stories all the time of the prosecuter charging innocent people with a crime and taking them to court just for political reasons. and a lot of times they are found not guilty, but sometimes they are found guilty.

they can falsely charge you with anything and they sometimes do, just because they can. they know it will ruin people, even if they are found innocent. i think the best thing for people to do to avoid prosecution would be to become an illegal alien and then be untraceble and ignored as a law breaker.

 

[IndyMonkey]

On my form 1 and 4's that I send to the batf, my reason to own them is for investment/collection. So does that make me a dealer now?

 

[downzero]

On my form 1 and 4's that I send to the batf, my reason to own them is for investment/collection. So does that make me a dealer now?

That's a question of fact, right?

So don't you think the answer could go either way based upon who gets to answer it? Obviously since I'm on your side here, I'd say no. But what if the jury says yes?

 

[IndyMonkey]

ATF says no.Profit has nothing to do if your a dealer or not.

 

[downzero]

ATF says no.

The ATF also says that a shoelace is a machine gun. I'm not sure I'd want to rely on their interpretation of a fact when it'll be the judiciary that ultimately answers that question.

Either way, your fact pattern is pretty far from what is going on in this video. I think it's pretty obvious what someone is doing when they have a case full of guns on a table at a gun show.

 

[E5RANGER375]

The ATF also says that a shoelace is a machine gun. I'm not sure I'd want to rely on their interpretation of a fact when it'll be the judiciary that ultimately answers that question.

Either way, your fact pattern is pretty far from what is going on in this video. I think it's pretty obvious what someone is doing when they have a case full of guns on a table at a gun show.

i dont think you are on our side at all

 

[IndyMonkey]

His true colors are showing.

 

[public servant]

 

[downzero]

i dont think you are on our side at all

That's perfectly fine and you're free to think whatever you want.

Let's see what the ATF says about the definition of dealer, shall we?

<!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:ArialMT; panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-format:other; mso-font-pitch:auto; mso-font-signature:3 0 0 0 1 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:&quot;&quot;; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> (11) The term "dealer" means (A)
any person engaged in the business of
selling firearms at wholesale or retail,
(B) any person engaged in the business
of repairing firearms or of making or fitting
special barrels, stocks, or trigger
mechanisms to firearms, or (C) any
person who is a pawnbroker. The term
"licensed dealer" means any dealer
who is licensed under the provisions of
this chapter. (emphasis added)

(21) The term "engaged in the business"
means—

(snip)

(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms,
as defined in section
921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes
time, attention, and labor to dealing
in firearms as a regular course of
trade or business with the principal
objective of livelihood and profit
through the repetitive purchase and
resale of firearms, but such term
shall not include a person who
makes occasional sales, exchanges,
or purchases of firearms for the enhancement
of a personal collection or
for a hobby, or who sells all or part of
his personal collection of firearms;

(D) as applied to a dealer in firearms,
as defined in section
921(a)(11)(B), a person who devotes
time, attention, and labor to engaging
in such activity as a regular course of
trade or business with the principal
objective of livelihood and profit, but
such term shall not include a person
who makes occasional repairs of firearms,
or who occasionally fits special
barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms
to firearms; (emphasis added, mine)

The whole document is available here:
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Since we now have the facts here, is a guy with a table full of guns at the gun show a "dealer"?

The answer has to at least be "maybe" if not "yes." I would go with "maybe." But the answer cannot be "no."

 

[Zoub]

are you a ATF plant?

ATF Says Natural Gas Leak Caused Explosion at Slim Jim Plant - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com

 

[E5RANGER375]

but such term
shall not include a person who
makes occasional sales, exchanges,
or purchases of firearms for the enhancement
of a personal collection or
for a hobby, or who sells all or part of
his personal collection of firearms;

thanks for looking that up and proving our point for us downzero!!

and the answer IS NO. a person with a table full of guns doesnt mean they are a dealer, even in the ATFs eyes

 

[OAK]

I agree with Ranger...

But here is the federal law

The term "dealer" means (A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail,

(21) The term "engaged in the busi- ness" means—as applied to a dealer in fire- arms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the en- hancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;

The term "with the principal objective of livelihood and profit" means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is pre- dominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liq- uidating a personal firearms collection: Provided, That proof of profit shall not be required as to a person who en- gages in the regular and repetitive pur- chase and disposition of firearms for criminal purposes or terrorism.

 

[OAK]

Oops Iphone double post!

 

[rmabrey]

 

[downzero]

Profit is necessary but not sufficient. I get that.

But it should be obvious to those of us on the "right" side of the law that this propaganda would be much harder to produce if questionable, shady transactions didn't go on.

Buying a gun is not like buying a gallon of milk or a dozen eggs. It should be, but it's not. And the Brady Campaign will continue to make propaganda against this unless we make it very clear that these transactions are legal and rare, because unlicensed dealing is a violation of the Gun Control Act.

Otherwise, the Brady morons will just continue scaring the sheeple by making these videos, which are really cheap to make and make a very strong impact on non-gun owners, even those who are not politically hostile to our gun rights.