Can the Republic be saved?

[strahd71]

I certainly never allowed it or wanted it. What was I supposed to do? Shoot the people that were wrong? Of course we could not do that. This once great nation is surely a democracy now and there is not a damned thing that can be done about it. Half of the population gets gets something for nothing and they sure as hell will not give it up without a fight.

i meant collectively for decades not anyone in particular. heck this road was started on before many of us were even born.

sorry if i wasnt clear

jake

 

[ThrottleJockey]

i dont think we can save it either, that kills me, i love our country even with the faults, and i'm really not one to give up easily on things. but really where to even start? sure we could do this or that but the problem is so systemic that i'm not sure fixing this or that will make a difference in the long run. this saddens me as a father of young children, what kind of world will they have?

we cant fix the government while we have all this division in the country, its not just a difference of opinion but division. how we got here isnt all that important, were here and there isnt much common ground between the people, forget the politicians i'm not sure they are all that important, the lack of unity of the population is why there is no hope, if we were unified we could deal with the politicians. sure we can sit here on ingo and solve all the problems. but there are millions out there who are opposed to our beliefs in smaller government and liberty. and they too are willing to fight and die for their beliefs.

so where does this leave us? Lincoln is quoted with " a house divided cannot stand" he wasnt the first to say it but those words are true today, we are divided in so many ways. politically, racially, economically, and the list goes on and on. our house is in shambles and is ready to collapse.....

jake

It really doesn't help when those same "elected" officials are "community organizers". Think about what one does when they "organize" something. I know when I organize things, I take all those that are alike and put them in one place, separate from another group of like things that are different...Let's use a dresser as an example, all the socks and underpants go in one drawer, shirts in another, pants in yet another...This "organization" is just a synonym for the "division" you speak of. IMO it boils down to education...or lack thereof. Until we get the power hungry fed out of our schools and put them back in the control of the communities they serve, we will continue to have indoctrination factories rather than schools. Until we each realize our individual roles in our family units, we will continue to work against one another at even the family level. It would be easy to place blame on the feminist movement, but I don't think it would be entirely appropriate. There have been forces at work attempting to destroy families in order to hold power and control over them/us for well over 150 years now. The need for a 2 or even 3 income family to achieve the "american dream" is what I believe to be the greatest tool used against us. We as a whole must learn to live responsibly within our means. We must take back our children and families and move towards true american values. We must impose austerity measures upon those generations that have brought us here and teach the generations that follow. Call it "modern reconstruction" if you will, it must be done in much the same manner as the original reconstruction and welcome those that get on board with it fully while only punishing those that refuse to join in the rebuilding. We're not going to get it with mitt. I actually fear that this has been the plan all along, to bring romney in as the "saviour of our nation" after barry only to find out all too late that he is going to bring us down the same path just putting the finishing touches on the big plan......I'll stop here, but could go on for pages.

 

[J_Wales]

Lincoln is quoted with " a house divided cannot stand"

jake

Then the tyrannical statist pig forced a conflict which would kill over 600,000 to force folks to stay in the house instead of following Jefferson's counsel.

Perhaps it is time for secession following Jeffesrsonian principles in lieu of a continuing tolerance of statist pigs.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Lincoln is quoted with " a house divided cannot stand" he wasnt the first to say it but those words are true today, we are divided in so many ways. politically, racially, economically, and the list goes on and on. our house is in shambles and is ready to collapse.....

jake

Then the tyrannical statist pig forced a conflict which would kill over 600,000 to force folks to stay in the house instead of following Jefferson's counsel.

Perhaps it is time for secession following Jeffesrsonian principles in lieu of a continuing tolerance of statist pigs.

I find agreement with you both. Lincoln was indeed one of the most destructive statists in our history, but then again, even a broken clock is right twice a day, especially when quoting a more reliable source than himself. I find no coincidence whatsoever in the efforts of so many to destroy anything approaching a single American culture. The net results of this Balkanization should be remarkably obvious to all but the most resolutely blind of sheep. It is true that a house divided against itself cannot stand, rendering but two choices: Either it will become two or more houses or it will collapse into a heap.

 

[techres]

To review.

Balkanization.

How well has that worked, say, in the Balkans? Hmm...

Bloody warfare with a good dose of ethnic cleansing?
Are they superpowers now?
Or, are do they still have UN troops in their streets (see Kosovo)?

Just going for a reality check here.

 

[IndyDave1776]

To review.

Balkanization.

How well has that worked, say, in the Balkans? Hmm...

Bloody warfare with a good dose of ethnic cleansing?
Are they superpowers now?
Or, are do they still have UN troops in their streets (see Kosovo)?

Just going for a reality check here.

Let me emphasize that I never said that it had much to recommend it, just that it is the end result of a situation over time in which not only is assimilation into a single culture not encouraged, but is generally discouraged quite strongly, resulting eventually in the absence of a prevailing culture, and then, goodbye stable republic, hello Sarajevo.

 

[dswilson]

While there is bickering to and fro because of differing views the important and encouraging note that I take from reading this thread is that everyone is practicing the core belief that was at the heart of the birth of our nation: LIBERTY. Thomas Jefferson said “I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty, than those attending too small a degree of it.” While we may not agree with someone else’s opinion we should respect it while we argue our viewpoint. And even though there are different views on how to do it everyone seems to agree that we need to return to a society based on the inherent and inalienable Rights granted by our creator. Do we really think that this discussion is so much different than the discussions that our founding fathers had before the revolution and during the forming of our nation? I say it is very similar. And if these debates grow, and we as a nation can do our part to wake up and accept personal accountability in the situation then there is always hope.

 

[churchmouse]

While there is bickering to and fro because of differing views the important and encouraging note that I take from reading this thread is that everyone is practicing the core belief that was at the heart of the birth of our nation: LIBERTY. Thomas Jefferson said “I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty, than those attending too small a degree of it.” While we may not agree with someone else’s opinion we should respect it while we argue our viewpoint. And even though there are different views on how to do it everyone seems to agree that we need to return to a society based on the inherent and inalienable Rights granted by our creator. Do we really think that this discussion is so much different than the discussions that our founding fathers had before the revolution and during the forming of our nation? I say it is very similar. And if these debates grow, and we as a nation can do our part to wake up and accept personal accountability in the situation then there is always hope.

As I am not well read enough to quote from the scholars and founding fathers as some in this thread I tend to agree with the above. I am re-reading the documents (constitution-bill of rights ect.) In an attempt to better understand what we are loosing. It is staggering. So many different opinions on how to achieve the same goal....Returning to a constitutional based gov.

 

[Fletch]

Just going for a reality check here.

How about another? American hegemony and constitutional government are incompatible. Those who want both are asking to drive north and south simultaneously.

 

[Pocketman]

As I am not well read enough to quote from the scholars and founding fathers as some in this thread I tend to agree with the above. I am re-reading the documents (constitution-bill of rights ect.) In an attempt to better understand what we are loosing. It is staggering. So many different opinions on how to achieve the same goal....Returning to a constitutional based gov.

"Returning?" This would imply that the current government is illegitimate. There's hardly a single thread in this forum that doesn't decry the current administration and how far we've strayed from the Founders' intentions. Technology, particularly in communications and transportation has changed considerably since 1787. We are living in a global economy, largely brought on by our own greed. In 1803, our country set itself in an irrevocable direction. I contend, the only way to return to what I think many here are proposing is to overturn Marbury. That is totally unrealistic and simply ain't gonna happen!

Congress, as our elected representation ("republic"), has firmly set itself up for the long haul. As long as the power in Washington transitions in an orderly manner, and those in power follow the law, I find no credence in this "unconstitutional" crap many are spouting. Things in this country are far from perfect and we should always work toward realistic improvement. Sans a magic wand, don't expect unicorns to roam the Great Plains any time soon though.

So I ask the OP. Save the Republic from what?

 

[Prometheus]

Those of us who support constitutional government as opposed to an authoritarian nanny state.

In that case? Not likely.

Other posters have great examples of why, from garage sales to wanting to regulate which consenting adults can do what in their bedrooms.

Liberals, conservatives... Most of them want to steal or impose upon you as equally as the other.

Liberty is dead in American law.

 

[IndyDave1776]

So I ask the OP. Save the Republic from what?

Self-destruction at the hands of self-serving imbeciles. If you don't see that coming, you must not have studied much history. I recommend starting with the French Revolution of 1789 since the circumstances are the most similar, particularly in terms of national financial crisis, corrupt practices in government, and the third estate suddenly feeling 'empowered'.

 

[J_Wales]

Are we called to defend Lady Liberty or a nation?

 

[strahd71]

Are we called to defend Lady Liberty or a nation?

Excellent question! Im sure another argument will break out

Jake

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Are we called to defend Lady Liberty or a nation?

I suggest we may want to protect both and keep trying to restore our former glory. Who will be the one to decide what comes after one or the other falls? I doubt it will be me or you. In fact there is a LONG line in the waiting room already. It's going to get bloody at some point Pray for our children and teach them well, neither will happen in school.

 

[churchmouse]

Are we called to defend Lady Liberty or a nation?

Liberty, nation....can we exist with out both.

 

[churchmouse]

Excellent question! Im sure another argument will break out

Jake

These are merely discussions between rational men.....a bit heated at times but still, discussions.

 

[mydoghasfleas]

Are we called to defend Lady Liberty or a nation?

Too many seem to think the two are synonymous, and that is the rub.

I would not recomend a woman "save" here relationship with an abusive man. (especialy when hes been promising to change for the past 100 years) I would suggest instead that she move on to a man that respects her.

The constitution was the marrage vows...and he isnt holding up his end of the agreement. She created him, she can make a new one.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Too many seem to think the two are synonymous, and that is the rub.

I would not recomend a woman "save" here relationship with an abusive man. (especialy when hes been promising to change for the past 100 years) I would suggest instead that she move on to a man that respects her.

The constitution was the marrage vows...and he isnt holding up his end of the agreement. She created him, she can make a new one.

Very well said. I would say that a nation in the form of a well-regulated republic is the only suitable vehicle for liberty, but in the end, the two are different albeit interdependent. In any event, the .gov can no longer be truthfully said to be a limited government as established in the Constitution, hence makes regular practice of encroaching on liberty if not flagrantly violating liberty.

 

[strahd71]

These are merely discussions between rational men.....a bit heated at times but still, discussions.

my dear mr mouse, you would hope that this would be the case but...... sometimes these threads are far from rational and go way beyond heated.

at any rate it was a feeble attempt at humor..... apparently it failed


jake