Can an off duty LEO carry a firearm on school property?

[japartridge]

Carrying alone does not equal training, training and training. Officers are in a constant state of training. Whether it is in a classroom or on the street. So much can be learned from each run, address and person they come in contact with. Officers take their experience from training and then take it to the field. It's comforting when you (PD) back up a county guy and your tactics help each other. We learn something on each run we make.

Our department is in a constant state of trying to send officers to different schools or try to bring schools to our department. Sad to say that we are not swimming in dough and cannot grant each request.

I think you mistook my post. I am not saying that carrying alone equals training, quite the opposite! I was pointing out that even with training and experience you can still have someone who shouldn't be carrying a weapon... both LEO and regular person. I personally know quite a few LEO that I have more experience with my EDC than they do, and they carry theirs as part of their job! Not saying that all LEO fit this mold, they do not, just pointing out that there are some LEO that are just as ... "inept" for lack of a better term, as a regular person.

Also, I am not a LEO, I am only speaking from what I've been told/heard. And I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn last night.

 

[Pocketman]

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[japartridge]

I don't disagree with you. However, the LTCH in itself only means that you passed a background check and had roughly $50 to get the permit. Having a badge means that you at least have minimal training.

And I don't disagree with you either... I just don't like it when people just assume that because someone is a LEO, they are firearms experts. Not saying that you said that. I do realize that there are a lot of people who get their LTCH and either A)never even carry a handgun, or B) strap on whatever blaster was on the cover of guns and ammo and never even bother to shoot more than 1 or 2 mags through it at a time. I would hope that anyone who took the time and made the investment for a LTCH and a handgun would take it upon themselves to actually learn the weapon, and get expert training with that weapon. I know that this is a lot to ask of people, but....

 

[Pocketman]

Next time you're at a public range do the same...and that's the limited number of gun owners that actually bother to go practice.

I guess you missed my point.

PS - Thanks for correcting my spelling.

 

[Gabriel]

I guess you missed my point.

PS - Thanks for correcting my spelling.

I changed that quote to make it a bit nicer and more to the point I'm trying to make without being inconsiderate of those that carry and go to the range.

I did get your point, though, in which you're saying there are likely bullet holes in the ceiling. That may an unfortunate side affect of training, which is something you don't have to do to hold a LTCH.

 

[Gabriel]

I just don't like it when people just assume that because someone is a LEO, they are firearms experts.

I'd never say that. There are a lot of police that simply don't like to shoot (which unfortunately means they stay at that minimum training level they were at when they went to the academy). In know a lot of them and know who I'd rather serve warrants with and who I wouldn't. I also never said that someone can't shoot because they only have an LTCH. I'm sure there is a large number here on INGO that could out-shoot most officers.

 

[BowhuntnHoosier]

I wish Cops and armed Citizens could work together rather than at odds. Even on the internet.

Won't happen......some want to be Above the Law. And others simply want to be protect themselves and those around them. But I totally agree Frost.

 

[lrahm]

I think you mistook my post. I am not saying that carrying alone equals training, quite the opposite! I was pointing out that even with training and experience you can still have someone who shouldn't be carrying a weapon... both LEO and regular person. I personally know quite a few LEO that I have more experience with my EDC than they do, and they carry theirs as part of their job! Not saying that all LEO fit this mold, they do not, just pointing out that there are some LEO that are just as ... "inept" for lack of a better term, as a regular person.

Also, I am not a LEO, I am only speaking from what I've been told/heard. And I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn last night.

I agree with your thoughts. I think there are a ton of officers that need to get off their butts and take training more seriously. There are also a ton of citizens (not us vs. them) that go to the range and practice seriously and are better shots than a lot of officers I know.

 

[Pocketman]

I changed that quote to make it a bit nicer and more to the point I'm trying to make without being inconsiderate of those that carry and go to the range.

I did get your point, though, in which you're saying there are likely bullet holes in the ceiling. That may an unfortunate side affect of training, which is something you don't have to do to hold a LTCH.

I was serious - thanks for correcting my spelling. Some times my fingers are faster than my brain. (Which isn't too challenging.)

 

[Hayseed_40]

Some times my fingers are faster than my brain.

That's what she said...


I agree that most LEOs are not shooters. Many have not handled a firearm until the first day at firearms in the academy. Some are down right scary. I have seen one scratch her head with her trigger finger (still in trigger guard).

In this active shooter scenario (in a school), the dymanics usually are different than a self-defense situation. AS is more offensive in nature and many depts train for AS. It is more than being accurate and knowing how to carry a gun. This is where the LEO will have the advantage (in most cases).

I am not saying the above to defend LEO carry and not civilian carry at school. I think the law is assanine and does nothing to protect our children. Unfortunately no politician will touch it. If they do and a shooting occurs - their opponent will crucify them in the media. It will take a politician with a backbone and strong morals to change the law and stand behind their decision as being what was right for its citizens (humming Battle Hymn of the Republic).

 

[ChrisK]

I wish Cops and armed Citizens could work together rather than at odds. Even on the internet.

This is the best statement made in this whole thread. Rep inbound

 

[jeremy]

I agree with you from a philosophical point. Ultimately, the police (and all government) get their powers from us. But, it seems to me that some of the posters are saying that a non-trained, but licensed to carry individual is the same as a well-trained, experienced LEO. I disagree with that.

I don't think different people have different rights, but we have certainly identified particular people to have (supposedly) the ability to give a higher standard of care. If somebody takes my kid hostage at school, do I care whether Billy Bob HillJack and his brand new gold-plated Desert Eagle takes the kill shot or a State Police SWAT officer who was a former USMC Scout Sniper?

It's the same with any other profession. No one sits here and argues that they are just as capable of performing brain surgery as the docs at the hospital just because they went out and bought all of the equipment.

I've been to public ranges. Frankly, I'd rather some of them never carry their weapons for all of our safety but the 2nd Ammd. doesn't have an IQ or even a common sense requirement.

My whole point is that we entrust certain people to handle certain situations for a reason, that's all. If none of them are around, we have to be able to take care of ourselves. But, we mustn't think that everyone can do it as well as every other person. No one has more rights than others, but it is clear some have more abilities.

How about these Conundrums for ya...

What if I happen to be the BillyBob Hilljack that has spent 22 years in the Army with over half of that in Active Combat Zones?!
What if I also happen to have been a Ranger Qualified Sniper in the US Army?!
What if I happen to have been a Graduate of the French Foreign Legion De-mining Course?!

There are a LOT of Veterans here in Indiana. Some are quite highly skilled, and most do not want to be LEO...

 

[japartridge]

I'd never say that. There are a lot of police that simply don't like to shoot (which unfortunately means they stay at that minimum training level they were at when they went to the academy). In know a lot of them and know who I'd rather serve warrants with and who I wouldn't. I also never said that someone can't shoot because they only have an LTCH. I'm sure there is a large number here on INGO that could out-shoot most officers.

I understand. I did not mean to imply that you had said that someone can't shoot because they only have an LTCH. But I know some of them as well!

 

[Hayseed_40]

This is the best statement made in this whole thread. Rep inbound

Not really...

LEO and Civilains have been working together on many issues - especially here on INGO (which is the heart of the internut). This is not US vs Them. This is not an issue of LEO being elitists. This is about an unjust law.

 

[japartridge]

I agree with your thoughts. I think there are a ton of officers that need to get off their butts and take training more seriously. There are also a ton of citizens (not us vs. them) that go to the range and practice seriously and are better shots than a lot of officers I know.

Exactly!!! We have reached a mutual point of understanding... and they said LEO and regular joe's couldn't cooperate!

 

[Hayseed_40]

But, we mustn't think that everyone can do it as well as every other person. No one has more rights than others, but it is clear some have more abilities.

If this were true - why does the YMCA give out trophies to everyone?

 

[Liberty Sanders]

Not all departments require monthly qualifications... I know of one local department that IIRC only requires annual qualifications. I understand what you are getting at, I just don't think you are looking at the other side of it... some citizens are just as well trained, if not better trained, than a lot of officers. Not saying that I am, I am not, I've just begun my training endeavors.

Let me give you guys a dose of reality concerning law enforcment firearms training.

I came on the job back when we were all using six-shooters. I was also around when the first female officers were going on the street as patrol officers both in my PD and across the country. Ditto with affirmative action.

Double-action six-shooters haven't changed substantially since the 1890's. They were designed for men and many small female officers simply couldn't handle them. Our range staff had their work cut out for them. The word had come down from on high that minority and/or female officers could NOT be washed out of the police academy...for ANY reason. That included inability to learn to use a firearm.

Our range staff employed what came to be called the ".38 pencil" method.

When a female/minority officer shot for score and didn't make it, the range officer would pull out his trusty pencil and jab holes through the scoring rings until they DID make it.

Easy, right?

During my tenure with Cincinnati PD I worked with dozens of officers who NEVER qualified on their service weapons...not ONCE!

Our range staff finally just gave up on the shotguns. When we would go out to the shotgun range the range officer would ask, "Does anyone have anything going on that would prevent them from shooting the shotgun today?" Every female hand shot up.

"I broke a nail." "I have PMS." "I'm having a bad hair day."

They'd be dismissed and would leave the range.

As a shift commander, this meant that if the **** was hitting the fan and I told an officer, "Grab your shotgun and take a post over there," the answer I would often get was, "Gee Lieutenant, I'm not allowed to...I'm not qualified on the shotgun."

The fact that someone is wearing a badge means absolutely diddly-squat in terms of that person's firearms capability.

 

[Hayseed_40]

"I broke a nail." "I have PMS." "I'm having a bad hair day."

I have used two of these three - but i will not tell which...

 

[lrahm]

How about these Conundrums for ya...

What if I happen to be the BillyBob Hilljack that has spent 22 years in the Army with over half of that in Active Combat Zones?!
What if I also happen to have been a Ranger Qualified Sniper in the US Army?!
What if I happen to have been a Graduate of the French Foreign Legion De-mining Course?!

There are a LOT of Veterans here in Indiana. Some are quite highly skilled, and most do not want to be LEO...

I understand your thoughts. Now, what happens when he turns the corner into four police officers in a diamond formation and who don't know him. Maybe BillyBob needs to look into his county's reserve program.

 

[jeremy]

I understand your thoughts. Now, what happens when he turns the corner into four police officers in a diamond formation and who don't know him. Maybe BillyBob needs to look into his county's reserve program.

Maybe he has know desire to have a Badge and be an LEO...