Breaking: Per SCOTUS, Same-Sex Marriage is now law of the land.

[rambone]

Okay, lets talk theology.

Interesting commentary from a UMC minister on the matter. He seems like he'd be a nice person and a good minister.

Adam Hamilton

A faithful minister does not delude his flock into thinking that people who consciously embrace sin have any place in the church or in heaven. People who are truly saved will respond to God's word and flee from their old ways, then follow God's commandments. The bible is clear about those who continue to sin:

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother." -- 1 John 3:9-10

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." -- 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." -- Galatians 5:19-21

"For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God." -- Ephesians 5:5

"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." -- Revelation 21:8

If anything in this world is constant, it's change. If pastors want to keep the pews full then some things are going to have to be put on the table. What is more important, keeping certain beliefs and values or change them so the word may live on without the threat of fading away completely? I've spoken to a few pastors. The hard headed ones seem to be having the most difficulty. It's not necessarily about being hip or progressive, it's about changing how you spread the message.

There is room for differences of style in preaching, but to change the message is expressly condemned in the Bible.

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ." -- Galatians 1:6-10

I need not go farther than the comment sections of the SC decision on WTHR's Facebook and see a massive difference of opinions among self-proclaimed Christians. Seemed to be mostly divided between those that are just shameful and filled with hate, and those that say it's not their place to judge and to tolerate it. I can take an educated guess on which side's pastors are preaching the right message that conforms with their values. That message will surely ensure their survival. It is evolving and there is nothing wrong with that.

Not surprising. A great number of people who call themselves "Christian" are not going to heaven. They continue to revel in sin and therefore have no relationship to Christ. Heaven is for "few" according to Jesus. See Matthew 7:13-23.

I saw a screenshot of an ex-friend of mine from a dating site whose been divorced TWICE now for cheating on his spouses. He claims to be a good Christian man who only wants to follow God's path for him and live a fulfilling life.

I also know truly Christ-like people as well so I don't have a knock against truly faithful people, just the fake christians who go around lying about how faithful they actually are.

Those fake Christians receive some of the strongest rebuking in the bible.

 

[cobber]

Okay, lets talk theology.



A faithful minister does not delude his flock into thinking that people who consciously embrace sin have any place in the church or in heaven. People who are truly saved will respond to God's word and flee from their old ways, then follow God's commandments. The bible is clear about those who continue to sin:

"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother." -- 1 John 3:9-10

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." -- 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

"Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." -- Galatians 5:19-21

"For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God." -- Ephesians 5:5

"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death." -- Revelation 21:8



There is room for differences of style in preaching, but to change the message is expressly condemned in the Bible.

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ." -- Galatians 1:6-10




Not surprising. A great number of people who call themselves "Christian" are not going to heaven. They continue to revel in sin and therefore have no relationship to Christ. Heaven is for "few" according to Jesus. See Matthew 7:13-23.



Those fake Christians receive some of the strongest rebuking in the bible.

Okay, what's going on and what have you done with the real Rambone??

 

[IndyDave1776]

Okay, what's going on and what have you done with the real Rambone??

Seriously, the removal of the rule against religion is allowing us to see all of Rambone. Just because he doesn't believe that the government should be in the business of imposing standards on us beyond its constitutional mandate, that doesn't mean he doesn't have them, and doesn't mean that he accepts clergy promoting anti-Christian doctrines.

After all, their mandate calls for following Christ, not some twisted, quixotic notion of 'social justice'.

I would also add that the rule change has allowed us to see much more of several members, for good and for ill. In any event, the truth is a refreshing things and I am enjoying its unfettered availability.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Okay, what's going on and what have you done with the real Rambone??

Lol, I think you guys are missing his point.

Kut (is clear)

 

[mrjarrell]

This thread, since I posted the pastors letter, really goes to prove a point that has been made for decades (and used to be the way things were in this country). There is no such thing as a christian in America. There are just, (as there always have been) various sects with their own interpretations of their books. There is no big tent or umbrella and they only really come together infrequently on a few issues. The zealotry is amazing. And the outlooks of some are frightening. Adherence to a book that has changed over time, (so-called christians do not adhere to all parts of their book, as the good pastor points out) for to do so would be an abomination. Genocide? All good in the book. Forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist? Fine and dandy. Slavery? Okey dokey. Things get set aside, (and rightly so). At least we get to see the big tent fray into tatters.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

This thread, since I posted the pastors letter, really goes to prove a point that has been made for decades (and used to be the way things were in this country). There is no such thing as a christian in America. There are just, (as there always have been) various sects with their own interpretations of their books. There is no big tent or umbrella and they only really come together infrequently on a few issues. The zealotry is amazing. And the outlooks of some are frightening. Adherence to a book that has changed over time, (so-called christians do not adhere to all parts of their book, as the good pastor points out) for to do so would be an abomination. Genocide? All good in the book. Forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist? Fine and dandy. Slavery? Okey dokey. Things get set aside, (and rightly so). At least we get to see the big tent fray into tatters.

Start a ministry and spread your version of the gospel. I'd probably attend a service to check it out.

 

[Mad Macs]

This entire argument assumes that we all believe in the Christian view of the universe. Many people do not.

 

[cobber]

This thread, since I posted the pastors letter, really goes to prove a point that has been made for decades (and used to be the way things were in this country). There is no such thing as a christian in America. There are just, (as there always have been) various sects with their own interpretations of their books. There is no big tent or umbrella and they only really come together infrequently on a few issues. The zealotry is amazing. And the outlooks of some are frightening. Adherence to a book that has changed over time, (so-called christians do not adhere to all parts of their book, as the good pastor points out) for to do so would be an abomination. Genocide? All good in the book. Forcing a rape victim to marry her rapist? Fine and dandy. Slavery? Okey dokey. Things get set aside, (and rightly so). At least we get to see the big tent fray into tatters.

Christian zealotry is amazing?


Yeah. Stoning female adulterers. Defenestrating gays. Beheading infidels. Burning or drowning captives alive. Yeah, those mean Christians!! And they won't bake cakes for gay couples. Oops, sorry, only one of those examples was contemporary Christian naughtiness.


Quite a rambling post, and nothing that hasn't been argued more convincingly by a sophomore philosophy major at Brown University in the past fifteen years.


BTW, why do you call him a "good" pastor? Isn't he one of those Christian zealots too?

 

[mrjarrell]

Christian zealotry is amazing?


Yeah. Stoning female adulterers. Defenestrating gays. Beheading infidels. Burning or drowning captives alive. Yeah, those mean Christians!! And they won't bake cakes for gay couples. Oops, sorry, only one of those examples was contemporary Christian naughtiness.


Quite a rambling post, and nothing that hasn't been argued more convincingly by a sophomore philosophy major at Brown University in the past fifteen years.


BTW, why do you call him a "good" pastor? Isn't he one of those Christian zealots too?

Nope, because unlike what I'm seeing in this thread he actually seems reasonable. What I've seen in this thread are prime examples of zealotry. As for stoning female adulterers...that happens to come right out of your book. But we don't do that any more, do we? The reason I do not mention any other religion is because no-one of any other faith responded to a christian ministers writings.

 

[Woobie]

Someone remind me again: why is the government allowed any role whatsoever in marriage?

The business of heirs, property division, etc. should be determined by contracts for those who wish to enact them.

They shouldn't be involved. The fact that they are party to a marriage almost makes the whole thing seem adulterous to me. But they have been for some time, and America did not invent that. Churches got duped into asking the government to define marriage. That was stupid, IMO. Once they ceded that to the government, the government can make it what they want. They can make heterosexual monogamy illegal if they can move public opinion far enough that way.

 

[KG1]

They shouldn't be involved. The fact that they are party to a marriage almost makes the whole thing seem adulterous to me. But they have been for some time, and America did not invent that. Churches got duped into asking the government to define marriage. That was stupid, IMO. Once they ceded that to the government, the government can make it what they want. They can make heterosexual monogamy illegal if they can move public opinion far enough that way.

Never let the government get it's foot in the door. This is akin to the debate about national reciprocity. Who oversees that national reciprocity?

 

[Woobie]

Nope, because unlike what I'm seeing in this thread he actually seems reasonable. What I've seen in this thread are prime examples of zealotry. As for stoning female adulterers...that happens to come right out of your book. But we don't do that any more, do we? The reason I do not mention any other religion is because no-one of any other faith responded to a christian ministers writings.

The quoting of stoning people for various acts gets pretty old. No one seems to be able to discern between the government of Israel in the Old Teatament, and the spiritual laws put forth by God. Both are in scripture, but you have to look at the intended audience. If we followed Hebrew law from the kingdom of Israel, none of us would eat pork or shellfish, no one would have tattoos, we would stone people for beastiality (as well as the animal involved), adultery, remove body parts for theft, and all manner of other things. But that law was not written for anyone but the Israelites of that time. Much of the ceremonial law was meant to be temporary as well. The system of sacrifices and feasts and so forth was meant to be a precursor to Christ, who fulfilled the law. His birth, life, crucifixion, burial and resurrection have ushered in the system God intended all along.

As an example,a woman was about to be stoned for adultery, which was the Jewish secular law of the time. Christ stated the famous "he who is without sin cast the first stone." As they all dropped their rocks and walked away, he turned to her and said "neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more." Why didn't he condemn her? His stated purpose for being here was to bring salvation, not judgement. The time for judgement by Christ is yet to come, but he has promised to come in judgement. It is important to note from this anecdote, however, that he does refer to adultery as sin. No excuse is made, only forgiveness offered. The standard of what Biblical sin is has not changed from day one. Nor will it ever.

The church, if it is adhering to the Word of God, is not passing judgement, not carrying out punishment or any such. But it is our duty to call sin of all types what it is, to warn of the danger it brings, and to point to the forgiveness that only Christ can give. If you really cared to know, a real Christian will freely admit his sinfulness, and that his only hope is in Christ. There are hypocrites, to be sure, but just because someone calls a spade a spade, doesn't mean he or she doesn't want to see someone else be forgiven. In other words, if I stand by the side of the road and tell you to turn around, the bridge is out, it might be because I nearly died driving into the chasm, and I don't want to see that happen to you. Telling you if you keep driving forward you will crash and burn is not akin to cheering your death and setting your car on fire to make sure.

 

[Woobie]

Never let the government get it's foot in the door. This is akin to the debate about national reciprocity. Who oversees that national reciprocity?

I agree, but that ship has sailed. The foot, the leg and half the torso are in the door.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Texas attorney general: Clerks can refuse to issue gay marriage licenses based on religious objections


Texas AG: County clerks can refuse gay couples | www.statesman.com

 

[JTScribe]

I saw a reference to this article on another forum. While it was actually about Indiana's RFRA, I think it holds quite a bit of truth for what we might see going forward if and when activists decide to keep pushing the envelope.

If a restaurant owner today hates gays, do you imagine he will like them more or less after government bureaucrats threaten him with fines and imprisonment? You might well land somebody a job, or get someone a lunch with such a policy, but you’ll certainly not solve the underlying problem of ignorance and irrationality. You have only escalated the conflict from an interpersonal one to a political one.For a religious man to hate gays because he thinks his god told him to is irrational. For a religious man to hate gays because they are his political rivals and oppressors makes perfect sense, and is more difficult to argue with. The nature of political battles in America being partisan, it represents an even bigger problem. Not only do gays force him to do business with them, but they elect Democrats to do so, and they then raise his taxes, confiscate his weapons, and force other costly regulations down his throat. His religious bias now has real world backing behind it. “The gays did this” is seared into his mind, and he’s not wrong about that.
Far from correcting his behavior and encouraging him to abandon his irrationality, he is given political support from people who don’t much care for his beliefs, but see the government as the bigger problem. He is courted by politicians who feed off of his biases, promising to overturn or repeal the law that is forcing him if elected. He becomes politically active where he might not have been before, and his biases are thus imprinted on the political figures he helps to elect.

 

[mrjarrell]

Texas attorney general: Clerks can refuse to issue gay marriage licenses based on religious objections


Texas AG: County clerks can refuse gay couples | www.statesman.com

Just another court case that the butthurt loons in Tejas are doomed to lose.

 

[bmbutch]

The quoting of stoning people for various acts gets pretty old. No one seems to be able to discern between the government of Israel in the Old Teatament, and the spiritual laws put forth by God. Both are in scripture, but you have to look at the intended audience. If we followed Hebrew law from the kingdom of Israel, none of us would eat pork or shellfish, no one would have tattoos, we would stone people for beastiality (as well as the animal involved), adultery, remove body parts for theft, and all manner of other things. But that law was not written for anyone but the Israelites of that time. Much of the ceremonial law was meant to be temporary as well. The system of sacrifices and feasts and so forth was meant to be a precursor to Christ, who fulfilled the law. His birth, life, crucifixion, burial and resurrection have ushered in the system God intended all along.

As an example,a woman was about to be stoned for adultery, which was the Jewish secular law of the time. Christ stated the famous "he who is without sin cast the first stone." As they all dropped their rocks and walked away, he turned to her and said "neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more." Why didn't he condemn her? His stated purpose for being here was to bring salvation, not judgement. The time for judgement by Christ is yet to come, but he has promised to come in judgement. It is important to note from this anecdote, however, that he does refer to adultery as sin. No excuse is made, only forgiveness offered. The standard of what Biblical sin is has not changed from day one. Nor will it ever.

The church, if it is adhering to the Word of God, is not passing judgement, not carrying out punishment or any such. But it is our duty to call sin of all types what it is, to warn of the danger it brings, and to point to the forgiveness that only Christ can give. If you really cared to know, a real Christian will freely admit his sinfulness, and that his only hope is in Christ. There are hypocrites, to be sure, but just because someone calls a spade a spade, doesn't mean he or she doesn't want to see someone else be forgiven. In other words, if I stand by the side of the road and tell you to turn around, the bridge is out, it might be because I nearly died driving into the chasm, and I don't want to see that happen to you. Telling you if you keep driving forward you will crash and burn is not akin to cheering your death and setting your car on fire to make sure.

^^^^ Well said, very well said ^^^^

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Texas attorney general: Clerks can refuse to issue gay marriage licenses based on religious objections


Texas AG: County clerks can refuse gay couples | www.statesman.com

Yay civil disobedience! Yay nullification! (We're still for that, right?)

Let Justice Kennedy, Ginsberg, et al come down to Texas and enforce their ruling.

 

[cobber]

https://www.facebook.com/FoxNews/posts/10153401250376336?comment_tracking={"tn":"O"}



Since INGO tells us Christians are the true zealots, gunman must have been a Southern Baptist upset about gay marriage. So where in America did this actually take place?


Anyone who worries about Christian zealots more than the ISIS variety is showing unique lack of discernment.

 

[MisterChester]

Texas attorney general: Clerks can refuse to issue gay marriage licenses based on religious objections


Texas AG: County clerks can refuse gay couples | www.statesman.com

If they are acting on behalf of the state, then this is reprehensible. If this was a church or private organization then I wouldn't have an issue with this.