Blackhawk Serpa holsters banned...

[esrice]

Keep in mind that the problem isn't so much finger placement, but rather finger movement. Yes, the Serpa puts your finger in the same place as any other holster, but the problems arise because you have to use that finger to apply inward pressure to release the locking mechanism. When inward pressure is applied during the draw, it is possible for the grip to continue, and the trigger finger to slip onto the trigger. With a normal holster the trigger finger is simply kept straight along the frame as the gun is drawn from the holster.

While this may not be an issue while drawing during range time, it can be when you can no longer pay so much attention to your draw, like during training, or competition, or when its 20 degrees and you're wearing gloves and you're trying to simultaneously draw a flashlight and keep a 300lb gorilla off of your head.

To me, however, the more important concern (and often less-talked about), is the lock becoming jammed when small amounts of dirt or debris are easily introduced into the Serpa mechanism. Being knocked to the ground is often a reality of fighting, and having a holster that locks my gun into place is unacceptable.

These latest reports are not the first of their kind, and probably won't be the last. If people need a budget kydex holster, I'd recommend Uncle Mike's offerings. If locking retention is desired, take a look at Safariland's ALS system.

 

[jeremy]

Keep in mind that the problem isn't so much finger placement, but rather finger movement. Yes, the Serpa puts your finger in the same place as any other holster, but the problems arise because you have to use that finger to apply inward pressure to release the locking mechanism. When inward pressure is applied during the draw, it is possible for the grip to continue, and the trigger finger to slip onto the trigger. With a normal holster the trigger finger is simply kept straight along the frame as the gun is drawn from the holster.

While this may not be an issue while drawing during range time, it can be when you can no longer pay so much attention to your draw, like during training, or competition, or when its 20 degrees and you're wearing gloves and you're trying to simultaneously draw a flashlight and keep a 300lb gorilla off of your head.

To me, however, the more important concern (and often less-talked about), is the lock becoming jammed when small amounts of dirt or debris are easily introduced into the Serpa mechanism. Being knocked to the ground is often a reality of fighting, and having a holster that locks my gun into place is unacceptable.

These latest reports are not the first of their kind, and probably won't be the last. If people need a budget kydex holster, I'd recommend Uncle Mike's offerings. If locking retention is desired, take a look at Safariland's ALS system.

I am a Dumb Mechanic, and I have yet to have an AD/ND with my Serpa Rig (Gen I). In several Years of using it and countless hours of Range time with it as well. If your Training is ****ed, your Training is ****ed up. Don't blame the gear. Call the spade a spade admit the problem is the way you are training and adjust the program.

As far as getting debris in the lock and jamming the Mechanism. Even I have not been able to make it malfunction that way...

Uncle Mikes might work for the Joe Average Carrier, but I would not recommend the gear for the hard abuser...

 

[esrice]

I am a Dumb Mechanic, and I have yet to have an AD/ND with my Serpa Rig (Gen I).

Obviously not every Serpa carrier is guaranteed to have this problem. But the gear is designed in such a fashion that its more likely to happen than with other designs. And the OP is yet another real-world example of this. If this problem was solely training-based, then wouldn't we see other holsters banned as well?

Uncle Mikes might work for the Joe Average Carrier, but I would not recommend the gear for the hard abuser...

I wouldn't either. But as many Serpa carriers picked it simply because it was inexpensive and available at their LGS, I suggested another alternative that doesn't come with the inherent design flaw, but is still inexpensive and locally available.

 

[24Carat]

OK, all this discussion begs the question that if a member comes across a thread such as this on another forum would you rather be made aware of a possible design or material flaw and have a heads up or would the most vocal naysayers rather stay in the dark and not have their choices or convictions challenged?

Personally, I prefer to fault on the side safety and self preservation.

 

[actaeon277]

OK, all this discussion begs the question that if a member comes across a thread such as this on another forum would you rather be made aware of a possible design or material flaw and have a heads up or would the most vocal naysayers rather stay in the dark and not have their choices or convictions challenged?

Personally, I prefer to fault on the side safety and self preservation.

I work in a Steel Mill, and trust me, I am big on safey. But there is a point of diminishing returns.
EVERY model car and motorcycle has been in an accident. MOST or ALL models of guns have had ADs or NDs.
So the question is, is there a disproportionate amount of discharges from this type? We need data from other types to make a comparison. X number per thousand holsters.

 

[jeremy]

Obviously not every Serpa carrier is guaranteed to have this problem. But the gear is designed in such a fashion that its more likely to happen than with other designs. And the OP is yet another real-world example of this. If this problem was solely training-based, then wouldn't we see other holsters banned as well?

They state in their own release that the Holsters design is outside of their Training and Techniques and further that they are an Attack the Holster from the Top Down Course. I suspect that most if not all of their experience is with Top Break Only Holsters...

So instead of learning the equipment and adapting to the differences in its design, they ban it?!
Where does this make sense. It is like saying All my training and experience is in the use of a Mosin Nagant, and sense I fail to understand how to apply the AK47 I am Banning them from my Courses...

I wouldn't either. But as many Serpa carriers picked it simply because it was inexpensive and available at their LGS, I suggested another alternative that doesn't come with the inherent design flaw, but is still inexpensive and locally available.

I picked the Serpa not due to its cost, but specifically for its capabilities. I have used and trained with a Variety of Drop Leg Holsters and have found none that will meet my needs as well as the Serpa. Granted my Serpa has been modded by me to better meet my needs. But it is still the same basic holster that apparently was designed by a son of Satan...

 

[Fargo]

OK, all this discussion begs the question that if a member comes across a thread such as this on another forum would you rather be made aware of a possible design or material flaw and have a heads up or would the most vocal naysayers rather stay in the dark and not have their choices or convictions challenged?

Personally, I prefer to fault on the side safety and self preservation.

While I appreciate any heads up, there are at least 3 issues here that come into play on their face before we get anywhere close to any "design or material flaws":

1. An admitted 4 rules violation of finger on trigger before on target.

2. Using new holsters with live ammo without figuring out how it works and breaking it in with dry practice.

3. Going from a pure top-down down training regimen to a holster which is anything but top-down without first modifying your training and gaining familiarity.

What really is kind of amusing about the "design flaw" arguments I always hear about the serpa is that those arguments are pretty much universally applicable to "Saint" John Browning's most popular invention.

1911's are easy to shoot yourself with if you haven't familiarized yourself and trained with them due to design and control placement. They also like to jam if you roll them in gravel or sand.

That both designs require some training, familiarity, and due care is not a design flaw in my book. It is just a requirement that to use them, you get the training, acquire the familiarity, and exercise the due care...

Best,

Joe

 

[thompal]

1911's are easy to shoot yourself with if you haven't familiarized yourself and trained with them due to design and control placement.

I find this surprising, since the Glock fanbois' biggest complaint about the 1911 seems to be that it's too hard to shoot a bad guy because of the additional burden of having to operate a safety.

 

[Streck-Fu]

For what it's worth, OpSpec Training no longer permits the Serpa or any holster that that has a retention system that had to be manipulated with the index finger.

 

[Wild Deuce]

... To me, however, the more important concern (and often less-talked about), is the lock becoming jammed when small amounts of dirt or debris are easily introduced into the Serpa mechanism. Being knocked to the ground is often a reality of fighting, and having a holster that locks my gun into place is unacceptable.

Agree. If you are going to take issue with the SERPA, this should be the reason.

 

[jsx1043]

I used mine on duty (Plain clothes detail - detective) as it was considered a dual retention holster. I never worried about the retention - I was more worried about the belt loop plate breaking on the thin plastic above the belt. I had a partner that wore one on the paddle attachment and had two break in the same spot. I didn't have any breakage in two years.

Numerous high-speed trainers/training companies have banned the holster in the last couple years for the same reasons as the OP. I've had mine and had zero issues from it, but if I want to take one of their classes, I have to wear a different rig. (Makes no matter to me, my primary is a Raven...)

The worst part of the article is the fact that that HHS has armed federaL agents...
"The below notice was disseminated last week to all 1811s in HHS OIG, and they have given me permission to share it with the IG community's 1811 population. "

 

[LongRangeBushy]

In training --- if one acquires a proper grip of the gun handle--- doesnt the index finger automatically go straight down the side of the weapon (in order to avoid accidental trigger placement) no matter what type of holster is applied? Just a thought. I have used a Sepra for several years . It occurs to me that my index finger is fully ectended and i either roll my index finger or engage the release as my index finger extends fully and is well past the release. As my weapon is being pulled from the holster my index finger is riding hi on the slide or cylinder no matter what weapon i use. I cant ever recall deliberately pushing the release with the point of my finger and definatley with not such force that my index finger jams inside the trigger guard to cause a nd... this would appear to be the same training issue with a smooth leather holster or kydex or any other type of equipment. As the hand pulls the weapon out of the holster the booger hook is extended and remains out of the trigger guard area.

 

[rbrthenderson]

In training --- if one acquires a proper grip of the gun handle--- doesnt the index finger automatically go straight down the side of the weapon (in order to avoid accidental trigger placement) no matter what type of holster is applied? Just a thought. I have used a Sepra for several years . It occurs to me that my index finger is fully ectended and i either roll my index finger or engage the release as my index finger extends fully and is well past the release. As my weapon is being pulled from the holster my index finger is riding hi on the slide or cylinder no matter what weapon i use. I cant ever recall deliberately pushing the release with the point of my finger and definatley with not such force that my index finger jams inside the trigger guard to cause a nd... this would appear to be the same training issue with a smooth leather holster or kydex or any other type of equipment. As the hand pulls the weapon out of the holster the booger hook is extended and remains out of the trigger guard area.

The point with the Serpa is that it requires pressure from the trigger finger and when people are using it in high stress situations or too quickly, they apply more pressure than needed. When I'm drawing from an open top, passive retention holster, my trigger finger rides along the slide like you had mentioned, but it applies zero pressure.

As many have stated, this is a training issue. I just don't support a holster that engages your trigger finger for any other purpose than pulling a trigger.

 

[phylodog]

Is it just me or is the Serpa debate becoming like the gay rights debates in this country?

It's not good enough to tolerate a Serpa and not say anything. If you don't like it you will be berated for your fouled opinion. It's as if no one has the right to not like the Serpa, you're plain wrong if you don't believe it's the best thing going and the debates won't end until everyone claims that they love the Serpa.

Lol

 

[actaeon277]

The same case could be made the other way. If you don't like the serpa, don't buy one. Why try to convince others of its inherent evilness.

 

[actaeon277]

Seems to me, this is a good thread.
Dialog on both sides. That's how it works.
I made a posting on one side early on.
But I have enjoyed hearing the opinions of others, even if it is different. That is how I (we) learn.

 

[esrice]

Why try to convince others of its inherent evilness.

To keep others from experiencing the same safety issues others have with this particular holster.

 

[Streck-Fu]

Why put yourself in the position to have to train around a safety issue? Especially one that involves the trigger finger during the draw.

 

[actaeon277]

To keep others from experiencing the same safety issues others have with this particular holster.

Sorry, maybe I wasn't being clear. My words were Devil's Advocate to Phylodog's response.
I am merely stating that each side is presenting facts or opinions. Each side may percieve the other side's remarks as an attack.

But in a Discussion, various points are brought up. It is the nature of the beast.
If you are at a place where everyone echos your opinion, are you going to learn anything new? Because someone disagrees with you, does not make them wrong.

I don't care what you carry. Bring up safety. But EVERY gun or holster has had ADs and NDs. Is the level unacceptable? If zero tolerance is the order, then sell your car.

 

[Wild Deuce]

Why put yourself in the position to have to train around a safety issue.

Training to keep your finger off the trigger is a good thing no matter the holster.