Bill of sale: What do you do when selling a firearm?

[Clay]

Do you use anything? nothing? pre-printed sales receipts available at any store? some online document, ie a pre-made Microsoft Word doc? etc

Just wondering what people do so they have some proof of the transfer, or if they even care.

thanks,
clay

 

[Scutter01]

I write out a bill of sale with a release of liability and the make/model/serial #, but I do that for anything over $100 that I sell.

 

[fwpd1763]

It comes down to this ......CYA! If your gun goes out and ends up at a homicide scene because it was sold 5 times after you bought it from a dealer, do you have the paper trail to back it up?????

 

[melensdad]

This is all overblown hype.

There is no law that requires to you have any proof of anything when buying or selling a firearm. No receipt is needed for either buyer or seller in a private transaction. This is no different than if you sold a lamp or a cow or pencil. You are obligated to not sell to a known felon. But as long as you don't sell to one then you are fine.

Gifts work the same way. Give someone the gift of a gun (for example your spouse, child or grandchild) at Christmas or for their Birthday and you do not have to have your child/grandchild/spouse sign a receipt.

If the gun is bought and sold 10 times after you are done with it and ultimately used in a crime the trace date will come back to you at some point. All you have to do is say you sold it and you don't have the buyers information. That is it. Nothing more is required. You are not in trouble. The buyer is not in trouble. There is nothing to 'cover your ass' from if you did not break the law in the sale (as in a straw sale or selling to a known felon)

 

[printcraft]

Found this on the net, printed out my own

Copy and paste this text into a word or text doc.
you might have to do a little layout.

NOTE: I'm not a lawyer and my opinions are not intended to be
taken as legal advice nor do I hold this text as legally binding, just
a layer of protection.




Bill of Sale
Transfer of Ownership

For $______ received, I, (seller’s name here), have sold to (buyer's name here)
One (1) ABC Model XYZ firearm description here, Serial # _____________
Any other accessories here

I represent that this ___________ is not stolen. I am the owner of the _______ listed above.
If it can be shown now or in the future that this _______ was stolen prior to the date listed below,
I will give the buyer a full refund for return of the _______ and all accessories listed above.

Sold as is.
No warranty is expressed or implied by the Seller.
Seller assumes no responsibility after transfer of ownership has taken place.
Seller assumes no responsibility of any/all aftermarket parts added to the ___________.
Seller assumes no responsibility of any/all original equipment parts on the ________.
Buyer assumes all responsibility when transfer of ownership has taken place.

Seller specifically disclaims any warranties of merchantability or of fitness for a particular purpose of this
________ and disclaims all responsibility for consequential and/or incidental damages or any other losses arising from the use of said _________.

Buyer agrees to the terms and conditions set forth and listed on this document, and acknowledges that he has received a true copy of this Bill of Sale/Transfer of Ownership and certifies that he is 21 years of age or older. Buyer acknowledges and understands that he will read the Owner’s Manual. Buyer agrees that it will be his responsibility when transfer of ownership has taken place to adjust, check, and follow all instructions as outlined in the Owner’s Manual. Buyer attests that he is able to legally buy and possess firearms.

Buyer: Name Here
Seller: Name Here

Date:_________________________

Buyer: _____________________________
Address:____________________________
Phone #: ____________________________
Seller: ______________________________
Address: ____________________________
Phone #: ____________________________

 

[-XL-]

Never Sell a Gun.

 

[melensdad]

Never Sell a Gun.

To bastardized an old saying ... "always a buyer, never a seller be"

 

[Prometheus]

This is all overblown hype.

There is no law that requires to you have any proof of anything when buying or selling a firearm. No receipt is needed for either buyer or seller in a private transaction. This is no different than if you sold a lamp or a cow or pencil. You are obligated to not sell to a known felon. But as long as you don't sell to one then you are fine.

Gifts work the same way. Give someone the gift of a gun (for example your spouse, child or grandchild) at Christmas or for their Birthday and you do not have to have your child/grandchild/spouse sign a receipt.

If the gun is bought and sold 10 times after you are done with it and ultimately used in a crime the trace date will come back to you at some point. All you have to do is say you sold it and you don't have the buyers information. That is it. Nothing more is required. You are not in trouble. The buyer is not in trouble. There is nothing to 'cover your ass' from if you did not break the law in the sale (as in a straw sale or selling to a known felon)

+1
The illusion some people have that somehow getting someones "information" is going to CYA is laughable at best.

Would you give some random stranger who owns a gun your address? That's exactly what you are asking when you request a bill of sale.

I've never done a FTF deal where I have ever given or taken someones personal information. If some random doofus wants to know my address he can sell the gun to someone else. It's called PRIVATE for a reason.

 

[-XL-]

I guess I shouldn't say "never" because that would mean I couldn't buy any! Although I've never bought or sold FTF.

CYA couldn't hurt, but it does head down the slipper slope of "reasonable" gun laws.

 

[melensdad]

Would you give some random stranger who owns a gun your address? That's exactly what you are asking when you request a bill of sale.

Abso-freaking-lutely!!!

I am more than happy to show someone my LTCH to prove that I am an Indiana resident (or simply flash them my Indiana drivers license) but if you want to copy down my information then I'm going to walk away. You can't have my address. If we 'meet' on a forum like this and my posts do not convince you that I am a legitimate gun owner then what good is copying down my home address? And if you are a buyer and you walk away with a gun and my address then I may have simply armed someone who is going to come back and attempt to help himself to my other goods.

Sorry, but "cya" is ********. If you want to "cya" in such a way as this then go to an FFL and have him do the transfer.

 

[NateIU10]

Nothing. DL, fine, LTCH fine, bill of sale with my personal info... buh-bye

 

[4sarge]

Abso-freaking-lutely!!!

I am more than happy to show someone my LTCH to prove that I am an Indiana resident (or simply flash them my Indiana drivers license) but if you want to copy down my information then I'm going to walk away. You can't have my address. If we 'meet' on a forum like this and my posts do not convince you that I am a legitimate gun owner then what good is copying down my home address? And if you are a buyer and you walk away with a gun and my address then I may have simply armed someone who is going to come back and attempt to help himself to my other goods.

Sorry, but "cya" is ********. If you want to "cya" in such a way as this then go to an FFL and have him do the transfer.

My Sentiments Exactly

 

[Feign]

Abso-freaking-lutely!!!

I am more than happy to show someone my LTCH to prove that I am an Indiana resident (or simply flash them my Indiana drivers license) but if you want to copy down my information then I'm going to walk away. You can't have my address. If we 'meet' on a forum like this and my posts do not convince you that I am a legitimate gun owner then what good is copying down my home address? And if you are a buyer and you walk away with a gun and my address then I may have simply armed someone who is going to come back and attempt to help himself to my other goods.

Sorry, but "cya" is ********. If you want to "cya" in such a way as this then go to an FFL and have him do the transfer.

Not everyone is who they say they are. You could be a felon, and as we are all more than aware felons can obtain guns fairly easily. It happens every day. We can't sell to known felons, but what happens if we do? Does ignorance of the law actually protect you then, with or without a Bill of Sale?

You're absolutely right when it comes to not buying a gun from a seller that requires it just like they can require it. It's a choice, sorry if you don't agree with it.

And an IN LTCH is not proof of residency, is it? I thought out-of-staters could get one, much like we can with Utah and Florida.

 

[melensdad]

We can't sell to known felons, but what happens if we do? Does ignorance of the law actually protect you then, with or without a Bill of Sale?

Actually it is not ignorance of the law. We know the law. We are not allowed to sell to known felons. The question is do we know the buyer to be a felon? If the answer is yes then we are not allowed to sell that person a gun. If the answer is no, then we are allowed to sell the gun. Your best protection is to buy/sell from people you have at least some passing knowledge of, even if it is via information given to you from a friend, co-worker, a forum like this, etc. There are ways to make some judgements about character, past, etc. It may not be foolproof, but its the best you can do.

 

[RogerB]

I think the the bill of sale is more for personal piece of mind for the seller and possibly the buyer. If for some reason the said handgun were to fall into the hands of a less than upstanding citizen and used in a crime of any kind...the seller would be able to account for the handgun thats traceable to him from the factory or dealer. They can plausibly put the focus off themselves and onto the next person in the ownership trail or back track it to the seller from the buyer etc....

Proof of LTCH or DL is really pointless, you can have a valid LTCH and become a felon afterwards. The state is so backed up they cannot follow up and suspend or void a new felons LTCH.

Its all about piece of mind for the seller, and its a person al choice made by the two parties involved....IMHO thats my

Later

 

[Crystalship1]

If I sell to a complete stranger (which happens very rarely) I ask to see a carry permit. I copy nothing down, I just want this for my own piece of mind. And besides, I too have adopted the whole "buy... don't sell" attitude!!!!

 

[csaws]

I was in the buy don't sell arena then I was offered $450 for two Spike's lowers with lpk's in them. I sold them, then added ten to it and bought four Stag lowers off of Karl.

 

[45calibre]

i take it you guys dont mean CYA as in "see ya later"?

also how exactly are guns traced back? i know someone who was caught with a gun with no ltch and when the cop ran the serial number it came back to his father who owned it. this is one of the reason people think there is some sort of gun registration.

 

[melensdad]

i take it you guys dont mean CYA as in "see ya later"?

also how exactly are guns traced back? i know someone who was caught with a gun with no ltch and when the cop ran the serial number it came back to his father who owned it. this is one of the reason people think there is some sort of gun registration.

CYA = cover your ass

As for traced back, that would be an AFT trace. If you bought a gun at a FFL the ATF can follow a trail of the serial number from the manufacturer to the distributor, the distributor to the FFL dealer, the FFL dealer to the first buyer. Typically the trail ends at the first buyer if the gun is later resold. If it is gifted then the FFL goes to the person who received the gift and asks them what happened to the gun. If they sold it the trail typically ends there. If they traded it in at an FFL for another gun then they go to that FFL and keep following the trail. Eventually it ends. Usually, from what I understand, leading nowhere.

But back to CYA for a moment. That is all overblown hype. It is legal to gift a gun, privately sell a gun etc and you don't have to keep any records of the sale. If a gun is ultimately traced to you and you sold it, it is perfectly legal, perfectly acceptable and perfectly legitimate to say I sold it to some guy for X amount of money. No harm, no foul. At least for now. Obama and the Brady Campaign want to outlaw that, they call it the GUNSHOW LOOPHOLE. As a % of guns sold, it amounts to a small % of the total. Most guns covered under the so-called Gunshow Loophole are gifts from parents to children. If Obama changes the laws, if you give a shotgun to your son you'll have to transfer it through an FFL and pay a transfer fee, even though you already bought it and paid the fee once.

 

[Prometheus]

But back to CYA for a moment. That is all overblown hype. It is legal to gift a gun, privately sell a gun etc and you don't have to keep any records of the sale. If a gun is ultimately traced to you and you sold it, it is perfectly legal, perfectly acceptable and perfectly legitimate to say I sold it to some guy for X amount of money. No harm, no foul. At least for now.

Again +1

As an aside, anyone under the age of 21 would not be able to get a handgun if the "gun show loop hole" is closed. So here in Indiana you'd have a valid LTCH at 18 but couldn't own it. Keep that in mind, I know we have some faily liberal minded gun owners here who think the 2nd Amendment means somethign other than what it says... just thought I'd pass that along for ya'll to chew on so when your 18y/o daughter gets a crazy ex and you try and arm her, youc an look back and kick yourself as my digital memory says "I told ya so!".