AUG NWI Meet & Shoot

[melensdad]

. . . pistols unattended behind the firing line MUST also have actions opened and magazines removed (if possible). . .

Now I am under the impression, from watching IDPA shooters, that they shoot until empty, release the slide on the empty magazine, point the gun downrange, pull the trigger and then holster with the gun magazine in the gun (I think). . . then walk off the range.

So the gun is empty but not visibly empty.

Again, I almost exclusively shoot at my home range, but as I've been teaching basic shooting skills to a friend of mine I've watched some IDPA shooting (not much) and the above is what I observed. It differs from what your wrote and different from what I used to do at & off the Trap line, so I am openly wondering if there are SOME MINOR DIFFERENCES in safety/range protocols between different shooting disciplines? This is why I wonder if we should have some sort of written policy that is handed out at the next event?

 

[Woodrow]

All persons NOT in the act of firing MUST remain behind the firing line. (a coach is ok but it has been getting overly crowded on the line)

Detonics got it there. There are too many people paling around just standing at the line (I'm sure I'm guilty of this as well). We all want to be there watching people new to our guns, and these are social events, but think about it like bowling...when you bowl with your friends, you don't all stand at the line and watch the bowler, everyone sits behind the lane and waits their turn. Granted there's not much space for our guns unless we are on the line, but that is just one of the few limitations of an outdoor range.

Bringing additional tables to set up behind the range wouldn't be a bad idea, but there was plenty of room on the 50 and 100 yard ranges for rifles. The wife and I were shooting the M4, AK, and our .22s with plenty of room and no safety issues.

I don't think there were any egregious errors on Sunday, just the sheer number of people necessitated even more caution.

 

[451_Detonics]

Now I am under the impression, from watching IDPA shooters, that they shoot until empty, release the slide on the empty magazine, point the gun downrange, pull the trigger and then holster with the gun magazine in the gun (I think). . . then walk off the range.

You missed the key words in the quote you used of mine... unattended guns

 

[GhostofWinter]

Now I am under the impression, from watching IDPA shooters, that they shoot until empty, release the slide on the empty magazine, point the gun downrange, pull the trigger and then holster with the gun magazine in the gun (I think). . . then walk off the range.

Actually what happens is you have your gun holstered without anything in it til the RO tells you to 'load and make ready' at which time you load a magazine, chamber a round and if it's a striker fired pistol you holster, if it's a hammer fired you lower the hammer, then holster. At the end of the course of fire you are instructed to 'clear and show that it's empty' at which time you clear the chamber and showthe RO that the chamber is empty. I usually lock the slide back for this myself. Once the RO sees that the chamber is empty he will instruct you 'slide forward, hammer down' at which time you let the slide go forward and pull the trigger to drop the hammer while pointing the gun in a safe direction. Then you holster.

 

[tem375]

, if it's a hammer fired you lower the hammer

Only if there is a decocker. You never thumb down a hammer, it is unsafe and if an RO tells you to then they are misinformed

However I believe this debate was over unholstered unattended guns in which case at a range they should be left action open to verify they are empty.

 

[jedi]

All rifle and/or pistol actions MUST be opened, chambers empty and magazines removed (if possible) at ALL times when persons are downrange. Rifles and/or pistols unattended behind the firing line MUST also have actions opened and magazines removed (if possible). A cased firearm meets the listed criteria. (Note: Use of an Open Bolt Indicator O.B.I. is recommended to designate compliance).

I don't think it is possible for the WASR-10 to keep it's action open even when empty? I know I can remove the magazine but the action stays in the closed position. Even when you fire the last round in the 30 round magazine the action will close. So how should this type of firearm (not sure if other AKs are like this as well) be handled?

Also 451_Detonics since you have prior experience in this area would you mind doing a small write up for our next range day? Do you want to be the INGO RO #1 person?

 

[AuntieBellum]

So, how does this work for our hand-out?

INGO Northwest Meet and Shoot Guidelines​

****ALWAYS FOLLOW THE FOUR RULES OF GUN SAFETY****​

1. Treat every gun as if it is loaded.​

2. Never point the muzzle at anything you are not willing to destroy.​

3. Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.​

4. Identify your target, and know what is behind your target.​

Transporting Firearms to the Firing Line​

§ If the firearm is in a case, you may bring it in the case to the firing line. At the line, please uncase the firearm with the muzzle pointed downrange and immediately lock open the chamber/action to demonstrate it is unloaded (if possible) with magazine removed and safety on.
§ If the firearm does not have a case or you are not bringing the case to the firing line, please lock open the chamber/action (if possible) with magazine removed (firearm unloaded) and safety on, and keep the muzzle pointed toward the sky while transporting the firearm to the line.
§ The use of OBIs or ECIs are recommended (Open Bolt Indicators or Empty Chamber Indicators) to visually demonstrate compliance.
§ Cased and/or holstered firearms are considered safe and are allowable behind the firing line.

Additional Guidelines​

ü No handling of firearms behind the firing line. If you are going to be handling a firearm, please bring it to the firing line using the transportation guidelines listed above.
ü Before anyone heads downrange to hang/change/check targets, all firearms will be made safe with magazine removed or firearm unloaded, chamber/action open, safety on. Please do not touch ANY firearm while someone is downrange.
ü Please stay behind the firing line unless you are in the act of firing or coaching another.

INGO Range Officers​

Please note that if INGO Range Officers (ROs) have been designated for the day, one of your fellow INGOers will be watching the line. ROs will be watching for those items listed above. In addition, ROs will take note of when the line is hot or cold for safety reasons but will not necessarily be making hot/cold decisions. Please do not be offended if the RO mentions a safety reminder to you – we are all here to have a good time, but safety is always our #1 focus.http://www.ingunowners.com

I swear it looks better in Word. I will happily print these out and bring them with. Feedback is appreciated, so let me know if I need to make changes.

I also really thought I typed out a response to all of this yesterday...apparently my post-surgery meds are messing with me more than I thought! At any rate, I'd be happy to help watch the line for part of the day. I'm also happy to bring dessert type stuff again along with a table. If only I could remember everything I had typed up yesterday...
​

 

[AuntieBellum]

I don't think it is possible for the WASR-10 to keep it's action open even when empty? I know I can remove the magazine but the action stays in the closed position. Even when you fire the last round in the 30 round magazine the action will close. So how should this type of firearm (not sure if other AKs are like this as well) be handled?

Also 451_Detonics since you have prior experience in this area would you mind doing a small write up for our next range day? Do you want to be the INGO RO #1 person?

Mag out, safety on. Do what you can do. Not all firearms have magazines, either. As long as you do everything you can to make your firearm as safe as possible and follow all the safety rules, you're good.

 

[Andre46996]

Honestly I could have made it to this event, I chose not to because of the amount of people in attendance. Not that I don't want to meet my fellow INGOers I just know the range well and understood what it would look like.

We really need a separate staging area away from the firing line and benches where safe(Chamberflag) weapons can be stored. The benches get to crowded. We also need an area away from the line/benches where spectators can mingle/watch. The only people that should be under the shelter are the current shooters and anyone instructing.

I would volunteer to be a RO but I would lose what few friends I have here.

Just somethings to think about.

 

[jedi]

How about a RED/GREEN flag for when the range is HOT/COLD to visually see for those on the line?

What are Open Bolt Indicators or Empty Chamber Indicators? Can we get these somewhere? I mean I know what they are in terms of what they visually do but are you talking like putting say a ruler (wrapped in red tape) on the open bolt as an indicator or does say Wal-mart sell someting similar?

 

[jedi]

We really need a separate staging area away from the firing line and benches where safe(Chamberflag) weapons can be stored. The benches get to crowded. We also need an area away from the line/benches where spectators can mingle/watch.

We did have this this past time as people crowded around the grill we had. That group was smoking cigars and eating hotdogs.

We had a smaller group sitting on chairs and the sole bench as well. Then we have the shooters and some floaters just "looking" at the shooters as well.

My biggest concern the last 3 times I have gone is the amount of guns I have on the bench when I have a beginner with me. I tend to have my 1911, GhostOfWinter's two .22 handguns, my AR-7, Amy's 10/22, and the WASR-10 all on the table with the Shotgun on the rack and then the guns of whomever is next to me. I look over at the other tables and it's also a slew of handguns on the benches as well.

 

[Bubba]

I haven't seen ECI's at Walmart, but I've bought from indoor ranges and INGO branded flags from the 1500. I checked MidwayUSA and the long curved ones good for pistols are $2.49. A cheaper option for some rifles can be found at the Appleseed store for $1. (no, I'm not plugging AS in this instance they really are the cheapest I found in a quick search).

As far as weapon storage goes, my concern about using the racks on the 50yd range is that I tend to shoot both rimfire/handgun and centerfire, and I don't like having my guns out of my sight. I came across a plan for a folding rifle rack online and if I get motivated to build it I'd be able to throw it in the car for the next shoot.

 

[jedi]

I haven't seen ECI's at Walmart, but I've bought from indoor ranges and INGO branded flags from the 1500. I checked MidwayUSA and the long curved ones good for pistols are $2.49. A cheaper option for some rifles can be found at the Appleseed store for $1. (no, I'm not plugging AS in this instance they really are the cheapest I found in a quick search).

So where do you put that "yellow thing"?

 

[Bubba]

Into the breech end of the barrel, through the ejection port if applicable. Here's one of the INGO flags in 451_Detonics' rifle at the July shoot. Same basic idea with a pistol - in the ejection port and down the barrel. The straight kind works ok for .22 and firearms with small ejection ports where it's unlikely to fall out naturally. The curved leg of the larger variety works in larger caliber barrels by pressing on both sides and holding the flag in even when the gun is held skyward.

 

[chef larry]

Thanks Bubba, I just ordered 10 of the ECIs from the Appleseed store and the shipping was $7.50 (Must be a BIG BOX they come in) , still cheaper in the long run. AuntieBellum did a good job on the hand outs for the safety rules. Glad to see there is a positive response for everyone's safety and many good ideas to bring to the table for discussion and not one PITA in the group so far (none needed).

 

[melensdad]

. . . and not one PITA in the group so far...

Can I volunteer

 

[jedi]

Can I volunteer

Only if you bring us some more food next time. LOL!

 

[GhostofWinter]

Can I volunteer

Only if you bring us some more food next time. LOL!

AND cigars!

 

[Andre46996]

not one PITA in the group so far (none needed).

Hi Larry we haven't met.....

 

[Woodrow]

I am all for enhanced safety procedures, especially with so many people turning out to shoot. I don't think there are serious safety risks going on. For example, if an individual shoots, empties their magazine and chamber, checks it, then backs away from the line, that individual knows they are cold; just because no one else sees it doesn't make it any less safe. Auntie's rules were basic and good. We need to avoid splitting hairs on the specifics. Cooper had only 4 cardinal rules for a reason--K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple, Stupid).

New shooters NEED safety briefings, but truthfully, they shouldn't be unattended at all. If you bring a new shooter, they are your responsibility. The most important thing we can do (as American citizens, in my opinion) but we must be their custodians. My wife hadn't fired a gun in almost 2 years. She didn't feel comfortable warming up with too many people around, so we went to the 50yd for her to become reacquainted. I walked her through some basics again, showed her about the guns she had never fired, and gave her time to get confident again. It can be overwhelming for new shooters to be around experienced, because like anything, we are afraid of making mistakes.

451_Detonics, if you are NRA-certified, then you should determine the best course of action. As you stated, over-crowding at the line was the main contributor to any safety issues. Your suggestions have all been practical and obviously stem from experience. I defer to you to determine the standards of safety. Too many cooks will spoil the broth as it were--I think one individual should be nominated for safety rules.