Attack on St. Louis Metrolink - No one offered to help

[ModernGunner]

Uh, three against one is a 'disparity of force' issue. That is a scenario justifying the use of 'additional means' (e.g. a firearm, knife, baton, etc.) by the defender (or a 'sheepdog').

That the man attacked didn't jump up to defend himself doesn't mean he didn't want to do so. Some folks just don't have that ability, or the training, or the mindset, to do so.

By some of the INGO responses, one wonders if those responses would be the same if the victim was 'Grandma', which it could have been, just as easily. Would these same respondents also opine, "Well, Grandma didn't jump up to defend herself against 3 thugs pounding on her, why should I get involved?" Or, would they spin 180 degrees, claiming they would then intervene to help 'Grandma'? Why would anyone believe them?

Everyone will act (or refuse to do so) based on their own conscious, or lack thereof, I guess.

But hey, maybe he 'had it coming', eh?

 

[Cameramonkey]

Good point Gunner. Just remember nothing good comes from sitting in your seat cowering and covering. GET OFF THE X! Drive toward the fists! Even if its to get upright where you can move away, but dont just sit there and take it. You are literally at their mercy.

And yes, I know I'm preaching to the choir.

 

[nra4ever]

Since the Vic did not help himself in anyway by either having the training the awareness to foresee the developing situation and lack of a weapon apparently then no help from me. As was already indicated by a former resident of the area its a known war zone and you should be prepared.

The only responsible thing to do is turn your cellphone the wrong way begin recording and start yelling "world star baby!" To help catch the perps later.

 

[steveh_131]

By some of the INGO responses, one wonders if those responses would be the same if the victim was 'Grandma', which it could have been, just as easily. Would these same respondents also opine, "Well, Grandma didn't jump up to defend herself against 3 thugs pounding on her, why should I get involved?" Or, would they spin 180 degrees, claiming they would then intervene to help 'Grandma'? Why would anyone believe them?

I expect a grown, healthy man to take steps to be prepared to defend himself. If he fails to do so, that is on him. Perhaps getting smacked around by a few worthless thugs will encourage him to do so.

I have no such expectation of a child or a grandmother. Both are defenseless, to an extent. Like it or not, it changes the equation for many.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I expect a grown, healthy man to take steps to be prepared to defend himself. If he fails to do so, that is on him. Perhaps getting smacked around by a few worthless thugs will encourage him to do so.

I have no such expectation of a child or a grandmother. Both are defenseless, to an extent. Like it or not, it changes the equation for many.

In a world where grown healthy men routinely ask for help changing a tire, one shouldn't be so surprised when they lack the ability, or even the want to defend themselves.

 

[singlesix]

Uh, three against one is a 'disparity of force' issue. That is a scenario justifying the use of 'additional means' (e.g. a firearm, knife, baton, etc.) by the defender (or a 'sheepdog').

That the man attacked didn't jump up to defend himself doesn't mean he didn't want to do so. Some folks just don't have that ability, or the training, or the mindset, to do so.

By some of the INGO responses, one wonders if those responses would be the same if the victim was 'Grandma', which it could have been, just as easily. Would these same respondents also opine, "Well, Grandma didn't jump up to defend herself against 3 thugs pounding on her, why should I get involved?" Or, would they spin 180 degrees, claiming they would then intervene to help 'Grandma'? Why would anyone believe them?

Everyone will act (or refuse to do so) based on their own conscious, or lack thereof, I guess.

But hey, maybe he 'had it coming', eh?

Oh what the heck if we are going to change the scenario to support a viewpoint then make it a good one, why not a 21 year old pregnant female who is on her way to donate her kidney to a 3 year old girl whose parents were all killed by an ISIS sponsored attack on a church pray meeting in support of a dying mother with 20 kids.

 

[steveh_131]

In a world where grown healthy men routinely ask for help changing a tire, one shouldn't be so surprised when they lack the ability, or even the want to defend themselves.

I agree, Kut, and I'm certainly not surprised by it any more.

As bad as I felt for this gentleman and the abuse he endured, my primary duty is to my family. I can't very well fulfill my duties if I lose my life or my freedom defending a man who chooses to remain helpless. And I do not have the training or experience to intervene in a situation such as this with any confidence that I would come out of it with both my life and freedom. Especially in an 'only-criminals-are-armed' zone such as this.

I'm not saying that I disagree with your viewpoint; I both admire and respect it.

 

[Whitsettd8]

I'd help him if I were alone. If I had my wife and kids in tow my priorities are elsewhere. Dude was a coward but sadly that's probably how about 60% of people would respond. I sure as he'll wouldn't be crying on the news about it.

 

[srad]

Don't think I would have done anything, save a verbal engagement, for many of the reasons stated on this thread:
1. I wouldn't call that a beat down... punk was beach slapping him. Nothing majorly injurious or life threatening going on here.
2. Guy desperately needs to work on his mindset and then some; not gonna get involved with what seemed to be a very light lesson learned.
3. If the vic were a child, grandma, elderly person, disabled person, or pregnant mom on her way to donate a kidney, etc. that would flip the switch for me. Full grown man sitting there covered and whining 'ouch' and 'get away from me'... nu uh.
4. No way a gun or knife comes out from hiding in response to this.
5. Authoritative verbal engagement telling said punks to 'STOP, FIGHT'S OVER, YOU WON, move on' is good wisdom. Given that the altercation was relatively minor and over relatively quickly, I wouldn't have gone this far. If it turned into a beat down or continued past when the doors to the subway opened, that would trigger a verbal engagement for me.

 

[chipbennett]

I'd help him if I were alone. If I had my wife and kids in tow my priorities are elsewhere. Dude was a coward but sadly that's probably how about 60% of people would respond. I sure as he'll wouldn't be crying on the news about it.

I don't get calling him a coward. He is a law-abiding citizen, who was assaulted, and chose not to participate in the assault by turning it into a fight - as is his right. He put up a defensive posture, which is not necessarily a bad move tactically, given his limited knowledge of the situation and his position of disadvantage (three people participating in assaulting him, they're standing, he's sitting, etc.).

The cowards are the punks who assaulted him.

 

[firefighterjohn]

In a world where grown healthy men routinely ask for help changing a tire, one shouldn't be so surprised when they lack the ability, or even the want to defend themselves.

Sad but true. I've seen this with some of my son's friends too. I've asked my son: "Doesn't his Dad teach him anything?" He replied: "Nope, he learns more here." Wow, to think THEY'LL be a Dad someday too...

 

[spec4]

Where's Bernie Goetz when you need him? If I had the ability I'd have no qualms about taking care of these sweetie pies. They need to be removed from society, they are no good to themselves or anyone else.

 

[Vigilant]

Well, it won't happen to him since for "fears of his safety, he won't be riding for a little while"! Long time listener, first time caller much? You ride the cattle car with animals, animals be animallin'.

 

[cosermann]

Here's something a little different to take away from the video: It's doubtful the guy has any training in the crazy monkey or other default responses [1], so I think the defensive posture he assumed is interesting in that it resembles what some trainers would advocate for a default position/response.

We can say what we want, but it did a decent job of limiting the damage and it seems to support the "instinctiveness" of that kind of approach.

[1] - http://www.urbancombatives.com/defaultart.htm

 

[churchmouse]

Me yes, because I'm wired that way, and would certainly be armed. But most people will not help, and I'd be reluctant to tell someone they should.

Ditto and ditto.

 

[Droogie]

Let's change the assumptions a little:
*That's you in the front seat
*You're somewhere it's legal to carry
*These guys start walloping on you

How do you react?

 

[The Bubba Effect]

Let's change the assumptions a little:
*That's you in the front seat
*You're somewhere it's legal to carry
*These guys start walloping on you

How do you react?

I want to talk to my attorney.

 

[roscott]

I'm a little disappointed by the responses here on INGO.


I have been present to many "mutual combats" and I didn't jump in to stop it. If two dudes wanna slug it out, so be it.

This, however, was NOT that. It was one person, under attack from 3 people. And for everyone saying that they wouldn't help simply because the victim didn't fight back, perhaps you need to reevaluate. Maybe he has a bad back, a pacemaker, or just had his appendix taken out. You don't know those things in the moment. Additionally, if he didn't have much training, perhaps his response WAS the best tactical move. If he is terrible at fighting and out of shape, perhaps defense is the best option, because he didn't want to further anger his attackers. Perhaps he saw that he was outnumbered, unarmed, and could not rely on any bystanders to help.

I'm honestly disappointed that everyone is saying they would not help him. Our society constantly preaches that everything is safe and there is no need to be on guard or armed. Those of us who are fortunate enough to know better, can we really judge those who don't?

 

[The Bubba Effect]

I'm a little disappointed by the responses here on INGO.


I have been present to many "mutual combats" and I didn't jump in to stop it. If two dudes wanna slug it out, so be it.

This, however, was NOT that. It was one person, under attack from 3 people. And for everyone saying that they wouldn't help simply because the victim didn't fight back, perhaps you need to reevaluate. Maybe he has a bad back, a pacemaker, or just had his appendix taken out. You don't know those things in the moment. Additionally, if he didn't have much training, perhaps his response WAS the best tactical move. If he is terrible at fighting and out of shape, perhaps defense is the best option, because he didn't want to further anger his attackers. Perhaps he saw that he was outnumbered, unarmed, and could not rely on any bystanders to help.

I'm honestly disappointed that everyone is saying they would not help him. Our society constantly preaches that everything is safe and there is no need to be on guard or armed. Those of us who are fortunate enough to know better, can we really judge those who don't?

I do not disagree with you.

Would you be carrying a gun on that train?

If so, what role would it play in your actions? I can't really justify wading into a fistfight with strangers while carrying a gun, that can get so deadly so quick. That said, if a good verbal command doesn't stop the situation, I don't see how the gun stays in the holster and here we go.

 

[Droogie]

I'm a little disappointed by the responses here on INGO.
...
I'm honestly disappointed that everyone is saying they would not help him. Our society constantly preaches that everything is safe and there is no need to be on guard or armed. Those of us who are fortunate enough to know better, can we really judge those who don't?

I was disappointed in myself when I came to the conclusion that I wouldn't have stepped in.

To me, the problem is that once the three thugs shift their focus from the defenseless guy to me, I don't have many options:
-talk them out of their attack, or
-draw my pistol.

Neither one probably turns out well for me. What other options am I missing?