Army's new SIGs ejecting live rounds, can't handle standard ball ammo.

[led4thehed2]

I am never been able to shoot a SIG, sad- I know- but I got to hold a dry fire one the other day. Wow- nice trigger! Made me realize my GLOCK's reputation for mush trigger is quite accurate, even though I'm used to it. This is a shame.

 

[Doublehelix]

SIG has made some mistakes as of late, no doubt. I am still a huge fan however, and love my P226 Legion SAO and my P938 is the gun I carry every day and depend upon for my life and the life of my loved ones.

Hopefully SIG gets their act together here going forward...

 

[Trigger Time]

I hope Sig loses it. They intentionaly lied for money. Why would we want that kind of a company supplying our soldiers weapons? I deffinately won't do personal business with a company like that

 

[GlockDoc]

Should’ve went with the Glock

 

[Goodcat]

Ouch...

 

[Amishman44]

My wife owned a Sig Sauer stainless P-230 .380 acp...and it was one heck of a shooter...and we sold it to get her H&K P2000SK, which she absolutely LOVES!

I hear from a few (very few) individuals who claim to absolutely 'love' their new Sig Sauer P-320...as well as from those individuals who have a different opinion!

I'm just glad I have no desire (or need) to purchase a new pistol (there are 2 revolvers I would like, but no semi-autos are currently on the list) and can save my $$ and my headaches!

I have a couple of active-duty friends who wish that the Army had chosen the Glock Gen V pistol...in their opinion, it was a more rock-solid, reliable, reputable, and proven option rather than a brand-new design...especially in 9mm.

 

[RoGrrr]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]The guy demonstrating the malfunctions showed you exactly how to set it up so that ANY GUN appears to do the wrong thing: ejecting a live round during a stove pipe clearance.
Watch how he does it at the one minute mark.
His gun is READY TO FIRE and then he brings the slide back JUST ENOUGH, and inserts an empty case. ThatÂ’s not gonna happen.[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]At 4:15 he shows you how he sets up another type which will not happen. The gun is FULLY IN BATTERY, READY TO SHOOT and then he pulls the slide back just enough to insert the case, sets up the stove pipe so that it is bound to APPEAR to fail. Watch him do it and you'll see the loaded round extracted PARTIALLY from the chamber. You can do that with any gun including a 1911, a Glock, 4320 or an F 92 whatever theyÂ’re called.[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]If the fired shell does not get ejected then the next shell in the mag will not make its way into/UNDER the extractor to be thrown out with the empty casing when you do tap-rack-thing as he indicates at the one minute mark.[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]I also claim that what he showed at 4:15 will never ever happen.[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]The stupid liberals who thought this up are convinced that stupid liberals who watch it will believe it.[/FONT]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Do they want more capacity like Glock ?[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Go to 2011 - double-stack 1911 in 45 and fill the mag with law-enforcement + P230 grain hollowpoints.[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Look back over 100 years and re-read your history lesson on why the army wanted the 45 - the 38 super would not stop the Mauro tribe so John Moses invented the 45 ACP and adapted his earlier design which we now know as the 1911.[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]I also suggest that stove pipes are not caused by hollowpoint ammunition. In fact hollow points are more likely to FULLY CYCLE than those puxxy 115 grain target loads. They are very likely to be closer to +P than under powered reloads that "ferrin" guy suggests as heÂ’s demonstrating the malfunctions. (does he work for gluck ?)
Oh, yeah. How many of you (or the military) use underpowered handloads for self defense ?!?
I know. Some of you will claim that HPs cause malfs. Yes, SOME malfs are caused by HPs. But they are failure to FEED, not stove pipe.


[/FONT]

 

[Smithkowitz]

Is there any wonder why they call themselves SIG now, rather than Sig Sauer (SOUR)? I was soured on them to a degree after my first purchase. Then I decided to give them another shot on a newer CC sized model, even more issues. I wasn't soured enough though, I gave them another shot on the most expensive chance yet; a P938 SAS. Well, they're all gone now, except the first purchase, the oldest one, a P232. Every single product of theirs I bought had issues, some multiple issues. If someone wants to give me one, I'd take it, and I'd trade it for something else . . . maybe a CZ.

 

[LCSOSgt11]

Let's not forget...this was a "government bid". We all know what happens when we get the "government bid." Look at some of our elected politicians, for example. Besides that, Sig may make untold monies in "follow up" repairs/modifications/recalls. With Glocks, Sigs, and some other makes, an "armorer" is nothing more than a parts changer. There are no gunsmithing skills involved at all. I am surprised though, at a pistol that will not feed "ball" ammunition reliably. That should be a given for any semiautomatic pistol.

 

[BE Mike]

I don't know if anyone pointed this out, but the new military ball ammo, isn't what we think of when we think of ball ammo in the past with 1911a1's and M-9's. It is a truncated nose ammo. Except for the rapid spreading of information today (some valid and some invalid), this reminds me of the complaints about the M-9 when it was selected by the armed forces. I may be wrong, but I think that a lot of the tests now are being conducted by the 101st Airborne Division. In one instance, I noticed a photo of a soldier shooting from a prone position while wearing heavy gloves. I wonder how a pistol can eject a live round with a spent cartridge unless the magazines are damaged or faulty. The M-9 had a sorting out period with magazines.

 

[Expat]

I saw a post on another forum. The guy was apparently Army acquisitions and he indicated they were pretty happy with how testing is going so far.

 

[Woobie]

I don't know if anyone pointed this out, but the new military ball ammo, isn't what we think of when we think of ball ammo in the past with 1911a1's and M-9's. It is a truncated nose ammo. Except for the rapid spreading of information today (some valid and some invalid), this reminds me of the complaints about the M-9 when it was selected by the armed forces. I may be wrong, but I think that a lot of the tests now are being conducted by the 101st Airborne Division. In one instance, I noticed a photo of a soldier shooting from a prone position while wearing heavy gloves. I wonder how a pistol can eject a live round with a spent cartridge unless the magazines are damaged or faulty. The M-9 had a sorting out period with magazines.

Yeah, I asked earlier if someone could explain to me how this wasn't a magazine issue. Not that it couldn't be, but I just don't imagine it. Now I understand the magazines issue is still on Sig, but that's a lot different than the whole pistol being FUBAR.

 

[BE Mike]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]The guy demonstrating the malfunctions showed you exactly how to set it up so that ANY GUN appears to do the wrong thing: ejecting a live round during a stove pipe clearance.
Watch how he does it at the one minute mark.
His gun is READY TO FIRE and then he brings the slide back JUST ENOUGH, and inserts an empty case. ThatÂ’s not gonna happen.[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]At 4:15 he shows you how he sets up another type which will not happen. The gun is FULLY IN BATTERY, READY TO SHOOT and then he pulls the slide back just enough to insert the case, sets up the stove pipe so that it is bound to APPEAR to fail. Watch him do it and you'll see the loaded round extracted PARTIALLY from the chamber. You can do that with any gun including a 1911, a Glock, 4320 or an F 92 whatever theyÂ’re called.[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]If the fired shell does not get ejected then the next shell in the mag will not make its way into/UNDER the extractor to be thrown out with the empty casing when you do tap-rack-thing as he indicates at the one minute mark.[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]I also claim that what he showed at 4:15 will never ever happen.[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]The stupid liberals who thought this up are convinced that stupid liberals who watch it will believe it.[/FONT]

[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Do they want more capacity like Glock ?[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Go to 2011 - double-stack 1911 in 45 and fill the mag with law-enforcement + P230 grain hollowpoints.[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]Look back over 100 years and re-read your history lesson on why the army wanted the 45 - the 38 super would not stop the Mauro tribe so John Moses invented the 45 ACP and adapted his earlier design which we now know as the 1911.[/FONT]
[FONT=wf_segoe-ui_normal]I also suggest that stove pipes are not caused by hollowpoint ammunition. In fact hollow points are more likely to FULLY CYCLE than those puxxy 115 grain target loads. They are very likely to be closer to +P than under powered reloads that "ferrin" guy suggests as heÂ’s demonstrating the malfunctions. (does he work for gluck ?)
Oh, yeah. How many of you (or the military) use underpowered handloads for self defense ?!?
I know. Some of you will claim that HPs cause malfs. Yes, SOME malfs are caused by HPs. But they are failure to FEED, not stove pipe.


[/FONT]

Actually the failures to stop attackers in the P.I. were not attributed to the .38 Super. The .38 Super is a far more potent cartridge compared to the Colt .38 which was used in double-action revolvers during the Phillipine Insurrection. The .38 Super was a later cartridge for the semi-auto 1911. An interesting side note is that American troops were issued the Luger and claimed the 9mm cartridge insufficient to stop the Moros.

 

[Compatriot G]

Actually the failures to stop attackers in the P.I. were not attributed to the .38 Super. The .38 Super is a far more potent cartridge compared to the Colt .38 which was used in double-action revolvers during the Phillipine Insurrection. The .38 Super was a later cartridge for the semi-auto 1911. An interesting side note is that American troops were issued the Luger and claimed the 9mm cartridge insufficient to stop the Moros.

I have also read that there were failures to stop the Moros with the .30-40 Krag.

 

[Hohn]

I find it interesting that the XM17 went 708 MRBS and the XM18 went 950 MRBS when the shooter induced failure to lock the slide back stoppages were excluded from results. Those are not impressive numbers for modern handguns.

Not at all impressive. Indeed, the whole MHS testing protocol was lame. 6000 rounds? Really? How can you tell how durable a pistol is from just 6k rounds? If you don't shoot it until something breaks, you're doing it wrong.

I have a P320 and I actually like it pretty well. I got it mostly for ergonomics, it simply fits me better than any Glock or M&P. And the trigger is OK.

But I'll be the first to tell you a P320 is not a "proven" gun, and I would suggest that the military testing was grossly inadequate to say the P320 is "proven."

Recall that the Beretta and the 226 went through like 25k rounds or something-- MUCH longer test. Ultimately the Beretta won by much lower cost. As did the Sig P320 this time around.

If I was still wearing the uniform, I'd be sure to carry a spare FCG for a P320 if it was my issue sidearm, assuming you could get other parts in country.



I have a sneaking suspicion that the whole MHS program will be viewed years from now as an epic, colossal failure.

 

[Hohn]

I don't know if anyone pointed this out, but the new military ball ammo, isn't what we think of when we think of ball ammo in the past with 1911a1's and M-9's. It is a truncated nose ammo. Except for the rapid spreading of information today (some valid and some invalid), this reminds me of the complaints about the M-9 when it was selected by the armed forces. I may be wrong, but I think that a lot of the tests now are being conducted by the 101st Airborne Division. In one instance, I noticed a photo of a soldier shooting from a prone position while wearing heavy gloves. I wonder how a pistol can eject a live round with a spent cartridge unless the magazines are damaged or faulty. The M-9 had a sorting out period with magazines.

And cracking slides...

 

[Vigilant]

I don't know if anyone pointed this out, but the new military ball ammo, isn't what we think of when we think of ball ammo in the past with 1911a1's and M-9's. It is a truncated nose ammo. Except for the rapid spreading of information today (some valid and some invalid), this reminds me of the complaints about the M-9 when it was selected by the armed forces. I may be wrong, but I think that a lot of the tests now are being conducted by the 101st Airborne Division. In one instance, I noticed a photo of a soldier shooting from a prone position while wearing heavy gloves. I wonder how a pistol can eject a live round with a spent cartridge unless the magazines are damaged or faulty. The M-9 had a sorting out period with magazines.

Beretta didn’t have a magazine problem, the contractor supplying aftermarket magazines when Beretta couldn’t did. Beretta factory mags worked just fine, the government contract mags did not. I cannot for the life of me remember the contractor name? It was Checkmate magazines.

 

[BE Mike]

Not at all impressive. Indeed, the whole MHS testing protocol was lame. 6000 rounds? Really? How can you tell how durable a pistol is from just 6k rounds? If you don't shoot it until something breaks, you're doing it wrong.

I have a P320 and I actually like it pretty well. I got it mostly for ergonomics, it simply fits me better than any Glock or M&P. And the trigger is OK.

But I'll be the first to tell you a P320 is not a "proven" gun, and I would suggest that the military testing was grossly inadequate to say the P320 is "proven."

Recall that the Beretta and the 226 went through like 25k rounds or something-- MUCH longer test. Ultimately the Beretta won by much lower cost. As did the Sig P320 this time around.

If I was still wearing the uniform, I'd be sure to carry a spare FCG for a P320 if it was my issue sidearm, assuming you could get other parts in country.



I have a sneaking suspicion that the whole MHS program will be viewed years from now as an epic, colossal failure.

There are different variables than in the past, like the firing of 147 gr. JHP. Not knowing the load, maybe they are harder on pistols than FMJ. I doubt that when I was issued a new in the box S&W model 10 revolver, while I was in the army, that there were any tests conducted, but it was accurate and always fired when I pulled the trigger. I'm not an expert regarding gun testing, but I suspect that the military tests are pretty good. Not perfect, but pretty good. When I was issued a Beretta 96D, I wasn't privy to exactly how much they were tested, but I knew that they fit the bill, as far as, the features that were deemed desirable at the time. When I pulled it out to shoot it, it always went bang and was accurate for the type of pistol it is. I think it had a service life of 30,000 rounds, but I could be wrong. One thing I have observed is that there are a lot of anomalies taken as general failures and partial truths taken as fact. Some of these may be the result of intentional misleading and others may be the result of incomplete comprehension. Either way, these things do nobody any service, unless the intent is to unfairly malign either the military or the product. It seems like there is a tendency these days to take a stand one way or another and do everything in one's power to tear down the opposition without regards to the facts. I doubt that the X17 & X18 (different from the P320) are perfect pistols and that, in fact, there may be better options out there, but after the dust settles, they'll be up to the job at hand.

 

[Hohn]

.... but after the dust settles, they'll be up to the job at hand.

They very well could be. But that would be a surprise to the Army, based on their own testing. Army couldn't possibly know anything beyond "it appears not to be total crap"

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I wouldn't use the 96D as a touch stone for durability. Beretta recommended a meager 10k round service life due to frame cracks. It was a poor attempt to make a 9mm into a .40. Sig was at an 80k round life span at the same time frame.