Army's new SIGs ejecting live rounds, can't handle standard ball ammo.

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  • Woobie

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    Trained hundreds on the Glock. Missing high isn’t in the top five challenges shooters face.

    Grip angle and trigger are subjective concerns which lead to bias. I’ve laid out the objective reasons.

    We have pretty objective methods for comparing triggers. To say it is subjective is simply inaccurate. And we have a whole lot of biology and kenesiology to tell us what the most natural grip angle is. There's a reason almost everyone but Glock uses the more natural angle.

    If you haven't had students missing high, that's good. That's probably because they had a good teacher and he laid out the basics of a good grip before they got into bad habits. And he tweaked their grip problems along the way. But I can tell you by the time a friend tells me of their problems, bad habits have already formed. And with Glocks, that often includes shooting high. More so than you would see from any other pistol in the hands of a novice. I can about guarantee you that 90% of Army pistol shooters will not receive quality training. I never did for my secondary when I was an M240 gunner. There are still bad rifle fundamentals being taught in some basic training rotations, for that matter.

    And I have laid out objective reasons which I feel would have meant more to the Army. But your bias is weighted toward certain objective factors. There's a whole bunch of reasons to go with any number of the pistols that were at the trials. But there will only be certain ones that carry enough weight to win the contract. The ability of a soldier to break his own weapon down past a field strip, for instance, is not even on the Army's radar. In fact, the thought of Snuffy out there in the woods with his pistol in more than 4 or 5 pieces is probably downright frightening to Army brass. And I wouldn't blame them. Is that a great reason to go with Glock? Absolutely. But not to the Army.

    Objectivity is only objective so long as the objective material is not subjectively selected. And we will all apply our own bias. All I am trying to point out is that this "should have gone with Glock" nonsense is ignorant of the entire selection process, and leads to attempts to impose our own values on the decision making process of an organization that is nothing like a private citizen or even an LE agency. Many people choose Glocks because of the unparalleled aftermarket support they have. But the Army doesn't care about that, they make their own aftermarket support. How many LE agencies require a manual safety? Not a lot. But I can't imagine a world with Army small arms that were not equipped with safeties.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    IOn the other hand, it might be an easy fix like the IMPD fiasco.

    Here's the false equivalency. The Glock issue was a single spring, and not the original designed spring. Once it was returned to the original spec, it worked fine.

    The P320, however, has failed multiple T&Es...yet somehow comes out ahead in the Army's testing. The info doesn't get made public due to NDAs and keeping relationships, but the fact it failed the FBI testing is pretty common knowledge. Not why, but that it did. It's been evaluated by several departments and agencies of significant size and has been...inconsistent.

    Reported issues even before the 'eject live ammo' include:
    POI vs POA being inconsistent from gun to gun (by up to 8" vertical at 25y)
    Trigger pull weight being inconsistent from gun to gun
    The drop safety issue
    Triggers breaking

    I've heard rumors of out of battery firing, but can't pin down anyone who'll give me numbers or circumstances.

    Given Sig's less than truthful response and their shenanigans about the drop safety issue, I don't find it far fetched at all that the military samples were hand selected and worked over to be decent, but when it came time to deliver a number of guns that couldn't be hand worked Sig QC came up again.

    The Glock 17M and VP9 consistently do well in testing, but Glock markets harder and better than H&K in the US. I don't know the results (or if there are any) of any significant testing of Walther. S&W had some accuracy issues with the M&P 9, but I believe those have been addressed by now. Sig seems to fall on their face with great regularity. That's probably a clue that something was different with the Army trials...but the inconsistency that showed up in so many other evaluations is sure showing up for them now.
     

    Woobie

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    I once spent spent an embarrassing amount of time reading the detailed timeline of the development of the M16. And this M17/M18 thing seems like deja vu all over again. T&E everyone swore was rigged, SOF using alternate weapons platforms (usually the Stoner 63), multiple trials, lethality tests, revamped TDP's, lawsuits, limited runs on small contracts, etc. I doubt the Sig even has a TDP yet. Whatever weapon they would have selected would have gone through this same mind-numbing process. And yeah, there was shady stuff done by Colt during the M16 development for sure. But the process is in place to make sure the long-term result is a highly reliable weapon that best suits the Army's requirements.

    What will the Army do with Sig? Well, they could open the trials back up. I think that happened more than once with the M16, but my memory is fuzzy on that. What they did a lot of was send inspectors to the mfg facilities to fix all the QC problems that arose. Product improvements were made along the way, etc. Sig isn't really guaranteed anything beyond this first run, except that they have a leg up on the competition now heading back into any possible future trials. This will be fixed, a TDP will be put in place and rigorous quality measures will be implemented. It took Colt years. But it will be painful. The good news is that we don't currently have 500,000 troops in a jungle discovering the deficiencies of their new weapons. But just like back then, everybody with access to a bar stool or a keyboard knows what the Army should have done, and has it all figured out.
     

    BigRed

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    John Moses Browning's design just ran and ran and ran for about 75 years.

    Hell, it still runs strong today. Should have simply gone back to the 1911! :D
     

    Woobie

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    John Moses Browning's design just ran and ran and ran for about 75 years.

    Hell, it still runs strong today. Should have simply gone back to the 1911! :D

    They're nice pistols, but capacity is king on the battlefield. And pounds equal pain. I love the Garand, but I can't imagine reloading every 8 rounds and not being able to haul a minimum of 210 rounds on my person heading into a war zone. If you're stuck with only a pistol, you'll want more than a 7 shot pistol and 14 more in magazines. Remember Mike Durant dropping his pistol in reservation? And he probably had a P229. I'm sure he wouldn't have minded a few more rounds.
     

    BigRed

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    I haven't followed this story or this thread, but I do wonder why they moved away from the M9.

    If a change was to be made, and a 9 was desired, why not the CZ75?
     

    Woobie

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    I haven't followed this story or this thread, but I do wonder why they moved away from the M9.

    If a change was to be made, and a 9 was desired, why not the CZ75?

    Not sure, but that's a good question. My guesses?

    1. Trying to go with what is perceived as state of the art technology, since they'll be using this pistol 20-30 years. And I suspect this is the real answer.
    2. Not having to answer all the (ignorant) questions because it doesn't look any different from the M9.
    3. Ease of achieving proficiency with a striker vs. DA for a novice.
    4. A perception that all DA/SA triggers are as bad as the M9. That first pull on the M9 is very long and fairly heavy. It's easy to pull shots without a fair amount of dry fire, which would never realistically happen for most soldiers.

    I'm also not sure you could make CZ 75's as inexpensively as a G17, P320, M&P 9 etc. But if they announced they were issuing CZ75's, you would probably hear me shout for joy.
     

    gmcttr

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    ...But just like back then, everybody with access to a bar stool or a keyboard knows what the Army should have done, and has it all figured out.

    I guess the difference is it was hard to get a wide audience back then pounding away on a typewriter. :)
     
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    phylodog

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    But just like back then, everybody with access to a bar stool or a keyboard knows what the Army should have done, and has it all figured out.

    Some people have spent time in the Army, have pretty extensive experience in training new and experienced shooters in a variety of weapon systems and also have experience in testing and evaluating firearms. Some may disagree that since something has always been ****ed up we should leave it that way to maintain the tradition. Some might also disagree that when selecting weapons to protect the country, maybe deciding against one because it’s “generic” or in favor of another because it’s cheap isn’t the best approach.

    Those with opposing views have keyboards as well I reckon.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    I haven't followed this story or this thread, but I do wonder why they moved away from the M9.

    If a change was to be made, and a 9 was desired, why not the CZ75?

    Well, the traditional CZ75 wasn't a submission so it couldn't be chosen...CZ's entries were the P-07 and P-09.

    https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/xm17-mhs-army-pistol/

    I don't know which eventually made it to evaluations, I've not followed it that closely.
     
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    Did you do the research before buying it and knew that it was not designed or manufactured by Sig? Did you buy it knowing that it was a well know failure prone device? What does the Mosquito have to do with the 320? Did you buy a Cadillac Cimarron?

    It has to do with the poor quality Sig Sauer is putting on the market.
     

    223 Gunner

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    I'll admit I did not read the entire thread. Wondering how many INGOers will be listing THEIR Sigs on Armslist? They can't dare list them on here, now that this thread exists.

    This site has the most "suggestible" group of members I have ever seen.
    On here and Armslist, the minute that it was news that the Military was adopting the Sig and leaving the Beretta 92, a bunch of 92's suddenly hit the classifieds.
    In the past few years I have "dumped" all my Sigs but one. I have a very nice Sig P238.....That's it. I got rid of mine, because they are big and clunky with long trigger pulls and resets. And yes I got rid of mine long before the 320 was adopted.
    After all these years, and as ugly as I always thought Glock's were/are. Outside of some Gen 4 issues, they still prove themselves time and again to be one of the most reliable mass produced hand guns.
    I'm not sure I will ever look at Sig firearms again.
     

    Trigger Time

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    I'll admit I did not read the entire thread. Wondering how many INGOers will be listing THEIR Sigs on Armslist? They can't dare list them on here, now that this thread exists.

    This site has the most "suggestible" group of members I have ever seen.
    On here and Armslist, the minute that it was news that the Military was adopting the Sig and leaving the Beretta 92, a bunch of 92's suddenly hit the classifieds.
    In the past few years I have "dumped" all my Sigs but one. I have a very nice Sig P238.....That's it. I got rid of mine, because they are big and clunky with long trigger pulls and resets. And yes I got rid of mine long before the 320 was adopted.
    After all these years, and as ugly as I always thought Glock's were/are. Outside of some Gen 4 issues, they still prove themselves time and again to be one of the most reliable mass produced hand guns.
    I'm not sure I will ever look at Sig firearms again.

    ^ he's right
     

    Dead Duck

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    I'll admit I did not read the entire thread. Wondering how many INGOers will be listing THEIR Sigs on Armslist? They can't dare list them on here, now that this thread exists.

    This site has the most "suggestible" group of members I have ever seen.
    On here and Armslist, the minute that it was news that the Military was adopting the Sig and leaving the Beretta 92, a bunch of 92's suddenly hit the classifieds.
    In the past few years I have "dumped" all my Sigs but one. I have a very nice Sig P238.....That's it. I got rid of mine, because they are big and clunky with long trigger pulls and resets. And yes I got rid of mine long before the 320 was adopted.
    After all these years, and as ugly as I always thought Glock's were/are. Outside of some Gen 4 issues, they still prove themselves time and again to be one of the most reliable mass produced hand guns.
    I'm not sure I will ever look at Sig firearms again.

    OK-
    I'll admit I did not read your entire post.
     

    IndyDave1776

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    The P320, however, has failed multiple T&Es...yet somehow comes out ahead in the Army's testing. The info doesn't get made public due to NDAs and keeping relationships, but the fact it failed the FBI testing is pretty common knowledge. Not why, but that it did. It's been evaluated by several departments and agencies of significant size and has been...inconsistent.

    This should be illegal. If we are expected to pay for it, we are entitled to know what we are buying (barring classified programs classified with good reason) and poor suppliers should not be able to get themselves contractually shielded from the truth.
     

    IndyDave1776

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    That being said the last 1911’s were not very reliable they were just plain wore out. (Yes the same ones CMP are going to receive)
    The M9’s were ok but they are wore out as well.

    The newest 1911s in Army inventory were purchased in 1943. Big surprise that time has taken its toll on them. I believe that a trip to the local gun shop will confirm that we have not forgotten how to manufacture them.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    This should be illegal. If we are expected to pay for it, we are entitled to know what we are buying ..

    Note you DO know how the one that won did, so you DO know (or at least have access to) the results of the ones you are buying. The ones that failed aren't being bought.

    I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I also think there's a place for NDAs if you want innovation. It's also not the military or a PD's place to be Consumer Reports for whatever item they are procuring.
     

    IndyDave1776

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    Note you DO know how the one that won did, so you DO know (or at least have access to) the results of the ones you are buying. The ones that failed aren't being bought.

    I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I also think there's a place for NDAs if you want innovation. It's also not the military or a PD's place to be Consumer Reports for whatever item they are procuring.

    I would see it running in a complete opposite direction. The NDA shields underachievement which would seem to remove a large portion of the incentive for presentation of a quality product. As for the military/PD responsibility, I will have to stand by the position that if they are buying with our coin, they should be held responsible for sharing the results they find in the process of spending our money.
     
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