Army's new SIGs ejecting live rounds, can't handle standard ball ammo.

[Woobie]

Not at all impressive. Indeed, the whole MHS testing protocol was lame. 6000 rounds? Really? How can you tell how durable a pistol is from just 6k rounds? If you don't shoot it until something breaks, you're doing it wrong.

I have a P320 and I actually like it pretty well. I got it mostly for ergonomics, it simply fits me better than any Glock or M&P. And the trigger is OK.

But I'll be the first to tell you a P320 is not a "proven" gun, and I would suggest that the military testing was grossly inadequate to say the P320 is "proven."

Recall that the Beretta and the 226 went through like 25k rounds or something-- MUCH longer test. Ultimately the Beretta won by much lower cost. As did the Sig P320 this time around.

If I was still wearing the uniform, I'd be sure to carry a spare FCG for a P320 if it was my issue sidearm, assuming you could get other parts in country.



I have a sneaking suspicion that the whole MHS program will be viewed years from now as an epic, colossal failure.

The 6k rounds they put through them for the first batch of testing will not be the last. The intent during that phase is not to determine those types of problems. Many will be broken in the hundreds of thousands of rounds of testing to come. We're all sitting here criticizing the entire process before they've even gotten into phase two.

It's like a bunch of football fans wanting to fire the head coach for going 0-3 in the preaseason.

 

[Woobie]

I wouldn't use the 96D as a touch stone for durability. Beretta recommended a meager 10k round service life due to frame cracks. It was a poor attempt to make a 9mm into a .40. Sig was at an 80k round life span at the same time frame.

Funny side note on service life: did you ever once fill out the "rounds fired" block on a 2404?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Funny side note on service life: did you ever once fill out the "rounds fired" block on a 2404?

I am reasonably sure I never filled out a 2404, period.

 

[Vigilant]

Funny side note on service life: did you ever once fill out the "rounds fired" block on a 2404?

only on An M67 Recoilless, and M2HB

 

[phylodog]

The 6k rounds they put through them for the first batch of testing will not be the last. The intent during that phase is not to determine those types of problems. Many will be broken in the hundreds of thousands of rounds of testing to come. We're all sitting here criticizing the entire process before they've even gotten into phase two.

It's like a bunch of football fans wanting to fire the head coach for going 0-3 in the preaseason.

It's kind of like "We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it." Once the contracts have been signed, money is exchanging hands and pistols are being delivered the testing becomes irrelevant, at least where selection is concerned.

 

[BE Mike]

It's kind of like "We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it." Once the contracts have been signed, money is exchanging hands and pistols are being delivered the testing becomes irrelevant, at least where selection is concerned.

Actually that isn't a good comparison IMHO. It implies that there was no testing prior to the selection.

 

[Woobie]

I am reasonably sure I never filled out a 2404, period.

They usually go in the circular file, anyway.


Me: "Snuffy has had some problems with his hammer pin walking out."

Supply: "Did he fill out a 2404?"

Me: "Yeah, about 6 or 7 of them."

Supply: Ok, go ahead and have him fill out another one."


Anyway, the point of this sidebar is that service life on small arms is kind of a joke. Everyone just uses them until they break, and when the bureaucracy gets good and ready to do something about it, they'll fix or replace it. Meanwhile Joe is walking around with 550 cord holding his together.

 

[Vigilant]

Actually that isn't a good comparison IMHO. It implies that there was no testing prior to the selection.

The “testing” was nothing more than window dressing. The Army spec’d the Sig320, which is the pistol they wanted, there were no other contenders once the spec was written.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

They usually go in the circular file, anyway.


Me: "Snuffy has had some problems with his hammer pin walking out."

Supply: "Did he fill out a 2404?"

Me: "Yeah, about 6 or 7 of them."

Supply: Ok, go ahead and have him fill out another one."


Anyway, the point of this sidebar is that service life on small arms is kind of a joke. Everyone just uses them until they break, and when the bureaucracy gets good and ready to do something about it, they'll fix or replace it. Meanwhile Joe is walking around with 550 cord holding his together.

Ah. Well, that particular service life was from Beretta themselves. Although I have heard confirmation from a few PDs that it's accurate.

 

[BE Mike]

The “testing” was nothing more than window dressing. The Army spec’d the Sig320, which is the pistol they wanted, there were no other contenders once the spec was written.

I doubt it.

 

[Woobie]

Ah. Well, that particular service life was from Beretta themselves. Although I have heard confirmation from a few PDs that it's accurate.

Oh yeah, I knew what you meant. I just think it is funny the difference that exists between what is discussed in the board room or the Pentagon and what actually happens at the unit level.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Oh yeah, I knew what you meant. I just think it is funny the difference that exists between what is discussed in the board room or the Pentagon and what actually happens at the unit level.

Heh, yeah.

Off topic, but I was involved in T&E of a new explosive detonation system when I was a 12B. "Shock tubing", a way to touch off a blasting cap without det cord and without time fuse. The shock tube didn't explode like det cord, so you could run it through things that you didn't want damaged with no issue. You could actually hold it in you hand as it went off.

This "new" system had been in use in the civilian world for decades. The first ones we got were day-glo orange and had a label wrapper that read "keep out of the reach of children". Well, yeah, it's a pre-primed blasting cap. Who hands that to a kid?

Do you know if that was ever adopted? I got out and never learned if they picked it up or not. We all really liked it, it worked well.

 

[Brad69]

Shock Tube travels at about 6500 Ft per second much improved from Det Cord. It was adopted its called MDI Modern Demolitions Initiators Its OD Green now. Yes the civilian world has used it for decades part of it was the stockpiles of Det cord and such that needed used up before we could use MDI.
I do miss walking briskly away from time fuse.

BBI make sure you double fuse your charge.

I have witnessed the round count filled out on the M240’s used for “overhead fire” you also have to register the guns with the Company Commander watching.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Shock Tube travels at about 6500 Ft per second much improved from Det Cord. It was adopted its called MDI Modern Demolitions Initiators Its OD Green now. Yes the civilian world has used it for decades part of it was the stockpiles of Det cord and such that needed used up before we could use MDI.
I do miss walking briskly away from time fuse.

BBI make sure you double fuse your charge.

I have witnessed the round count filled out on the M240’s used for “overhead fire” you also have to register the guns with the Company Commander watching.

Yeah, I did get to see the OD green version and use it. We used it in conjunction with det cord, not as a replacement. Det cord is useful in situations were shock tube wasn't and vice versa.

Thanks for the information, all this T&E talk just got me to thinking about it and made me curious.

 

[Woobie]

That's really interesting. I had no experience with shock tube. I'm glad Brad knew, I was going to have to phone a friend on that one.

 

[BE Mike]

Looks like a bromance. I caution you though, that two's company and three's a crowd!

 

[BE Mike]

I wouldn't use the 96D as a touch stone for durability. Beretta recommended a meager 10k round service life due to frame cracks. It was a poor attempt to make a 9mm into a .40. Sig was at an 80k round life span at the same time frame.

I didn't want to respond to this without getting it straight "from the horses mouth" so to speak. Here is an e-mail I just received from a gentleman who was directly involved in the selection process for my former agency:
96D beat every other .40S&W by a long shot. The standard federal round count before replacement was 10,000 rounds, but the NFU kept rebuilding them after 10,000 and sending them back to the Academy for reissue.


Actually, all but the Beretta failed the .40 S&W round compatibility testing which was a pass / fail requirement.


-kent


Ave# Malfunctions per 10,000 rounds (I Think there were 4 guns per make / model in the reliability testing.)
Beretta - 4
Sig P229 28
H-K 115
S&W 1,500
Glock & Ruger suffered Catastrophic malfunctions before 10,000
If you are interested in the various tests completed I can list them.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I didn't want to respond to this without getting it straight "from the horses mouth" so to speak. Here is an e-mail I just received from a gentleman who was directly involved in the selection process for my former agency:
96D beat every other .40S&W by a long shot. The standard federal round count before replacement was 10,000 rounds, but the NFU kept rebuilding them after 10,000 and sending them back to the Academy for reissue.


Actually, all but the Beretta failed the .40 S&W round compatibility testing which was a pass / fail requirement.


-kent


Ave# Malfunctions per 10,000 rounds (I Think there were 4 guns per make / model in the reliability testing.)
Beretta - 4
Sig P229 28
H-K 115
S&W 1,500
Glock & Ruger suffered Catastrophic malfunctions before 10,000
If you are interested in the various tests completed I can list them.

Todd L Green, who worked for Beretta at the time:

10,000 was what we told customers back when I worked there. A significant percentage of 96Ds had frame cracks by that point.

I stopped shooting that gun when I got hired at Beretta and the head quality control guy performed a dye penetrant test on the frame. He found multiple cracks and suggested I not fire the gun again. It had somewhere between four and five thousand rounds through it at the time. (note this was a .357 Sig test gun)

Border Patrol had a lot of frame cracking issues, although they were issuing a pretty hot 155gr round that accelerated wear. Locally, Carmel PD got out of them pretty quick citing parts breakage.


If they gave you guys good service, glad for you. They didn't for a lot of others, and Beretta quoted that life span, roughly 1/3 of the estimated life of the parent 92, for a reason.

 

[BE Mike]

Todd L Green, who worked for Beretta at the time:





Border Patrol had a lot of frame cracking issues, although they were issuing a pretty hot 155gr round that accelerated wear. Locally, Carmel PD got out of them pretty quick citing parts breakage.


If they gave you guys good service, glad for you. They didn't for a lot of others, and Beretta quoted that life span, roughly 1/3 of the estimated life of the parent 92, for a reason.

I don't think that the pressures of the .357 Sig and .40 S&W are the same (the .357 Sig developing higher pressures). That could be the reason for the Beretta employee's claims of frame cracking. Looks like in these tests, the Sig didn't pass muster. I don't know about the Border Patrol having "a lot" of frame cracking issues. Of course since many of them were rebuilt, instead of being replaced at the 10,000 round count, that could have been an issue. You are right that the Border Patrol used 135 gr. JHP .40 S&W ammo. The Border Patrol qualified every quarter with that ammo...maybe still do quarterly quals.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I stand by the 96D not being the touch stone of durability. Even if other .40s were worse at the time frame the testing was done (early 90s, I'm guessing?), you're still looking at a gun that the manufacturer calls for 1/3 the service life of the parent platform. You're still looking at a gun that's been phased out by most, if not all, entities of any size that adopted it...with many reporting longevity issues as the reason.

I'm glad you guys got good service out of them, but they simply aren't as durable as many other choices...including the M9/92 it was designed around.