AR 15 and Iron Sight Grouping

[Moparracer89]

What groups are you guys shooting with iron sights only at 50 and 100yds? I shot my ar for the first time today. I only have iron sights right now, also a first for me. I shot a 6" group of 30rds @ 50yds. I didn't think it was terrible but not the best. How bad did I do?

 

[Leo]

1 MOA and under is not only possible, but done regularly in registered High Power rifle competition in sitting rapid fire and prone position. (no artificial support). 6 inches at one hundred yards from the standing position is pretty run of the mill, with better shooters grouping closer to 3 inches.

 

[spitfire51]

What type of position are you using? Also, if you haven't already, come to an appleseed, you'll get some good tips for improving your groups.

 

[LPMan59]

 

[rockhopper46038]

Today with a Spike's .22LR conversion bolt in my Armalite, shooting iron sights from prone with a sling, I was very pleasantly surprised to see everything out of a 26 rnd magazine group within a 1" square at 25yards. I was under the impression the conversion kits were pretty inaccurate, as the .22 bullet is undersized for the .223/5.56mm bore, but that's plenty accurate to shoot a rifleman score with. I'll need to go to a different range to try it out with centerfire rounds.

 

[Moparracer89]

What type of position are you using? Also, if you haven't already, come to an appleseed, you'll get some good tips for improving your groups.

Sitting, no artificial support. I've heard of appleseed but I'm not quite clear what it is, any insight?

 

[PriestEG]

i can achieve 6" 5rd groups from the standing with my rilfe at 200yards, but ive have some usmc training. now if i was to move to the sitting at 50yards, i should be able to paint some nice 1" groupings all day.

for a first shooting of your ar, i would not say that you did not do terrible at all! just take some time to refine your tech. put a 1" pasty on your wall and do some quality snap in time from across the yard, basement, garage. 15 or 20 mins a night for a few days and next time you go, you will definately notice a big difference

 

[rockhopper46038]

Sitting, no artificial support. I've heard of appleseed but I'm not quite clear what it is, any insight?

Go read the posting in the Advertiser's section for Appleseed. All the info is there. Once you try one, you get hooked.

 

[spitfire51]

Sitting, no artificial support. I've heard of appleseed but I'm not quite clear what it is, any insight?

It's a weekend long rifle marksmanship clinic, and more importantly you'll hear some history that every American needs to hear. The appleseed website will have all the info on schedules and what to bring.

 

[mike8170]

What groups are you guys shooting with iron sights only at 50 and 100yds? I shot my ar for the first time today. I only have iron sights right now, also a first for me. I shot a 6" group of 30rds @ 50yds. I didn't think it was terrible but not the best. How bad did I do?

Is this carbine or rifle? Plus, the twist and bullet weight will make a huge difference. I am getting ready to build a 20" AR with a 1/7 twist bbl because that is what the M-16A2/A3 are, and I always shot expert (and yes, I shot expert with the M4 each time).

If you want to get a standard iron sight zero, I you can print off the 25m targets here: http://ohmr.ohio.gov/forms/ohmr2444-b.pdf Five consecutive hits from two 3 round groups within the circle of the target means you are zeroed.

Plus, pick up a copy of the Army M16/M4 marksmanship manual, since the platforms are the same. There is a lot of good information in there. Your weapon is capable of much better grouping with understanding and practice.

 

[Moparracer89]

This is a 16" mid length with 1/7. I was using 55g remington .223. Where can I get the marksmanship manual?

 

[dross]

i can achieve 6" 5rd groups from the standing with my rilfe at 200yards, but ive have some usmc training. now if i was to move to the sitting at 50yards, i should be able to paint some nice 1" groupings all day.

for a first shooting of your ar, i would not say that you did not do terrible at all! just take some time to refine your tech. put a 1" pasty on your wall and do some quality snap in time from across the yard, basement, garage. 15 or 20 mins a night for a few days and next time you go, you will definately notice a big difference

How do you do this? My front sight covers at least 12 inches at 200 yards. I can barely see a six inch object at 200 yards. Are you using special targets that allow you to align the edges of your sight post or something? Someone help me out because I have a lot of difficulty understanding this

I can shoot under an inch with a scope and a halfway decent rest most of the time. So, my technique is good enough to do that. When I shoot my ARs with iron sights with a very good rest, I can get about 5 inch groups at 100 yards. The sight just covers too much area, I try to center the target on the post, but I can't make out a one inch object at 100 yards.

Talk to me, because I'd like to improve my iron sight groups, and I'm not talking about breathing or trigger here, because that's the same as an optic. I'm talking about sight picture because that's the only variable.

 

[Cerberus]

How do you do this? My front sight covers at least 12 inches at 200 yards. I can barely see a six inch object at 200 yards. Are you using special targets that allow you to align the edges of your sight post or something? Someone help me out because I have a lot of difficulty understanding this

I can shoot under an inch with a scope and a halfway decent rest most of the time. So, my technique is good enough to do that. When I shoot my ARs with iron sights with a very good rest, I can get about 5 inch groups at 100 yards. The sight just covers too much area, I try to center the target on the post, but I can't make out a one inch object at 100 yards.

Talk to me, because I'd like to improve my iron sight groups, and I'm not talking about breathing or trigger here, because that's the same as an optic. I'm talking about sight picture because that's the only variable.

Don't try to make out the 1" bull at 100, just concentrate on consistently shooting center of mass. Sure our rifles are capable of great accuracy, but our eyes are growing older, at least mine are.

I can consistently hit to 200 with iron sights, beyond that is starting to become a challenge. I have realisticly settled on minute of man accuracy now.

 

[PriestEG]

How do you do this? My front sight covers at least 12 inches at 200 yards. I can barely see a six inch object at 200 yards. Are you using special targets that allow you to align the edges of your sight post or something? Someone help me out because I have a lot of difficulty understanding this

I can shoot under an inch with a scope and a halfway decent rest most of the time. So, my technique is good enough to do that. When I shoot my ARs with iron sights with a very good rest, I can get about 5 inch groups at 100 yards. The sight just covers too much area, I try to center the target on the post, but I can't make out a one inch object at 100 yards.

Talk to me, because I'd like to improve my iron sight groups, and I'm not talking about breathing or trigger here, because that's the same as an optic. I'm talking about sight picture because that's the only variable.

for me personally, it boils down to where my eye focuses. i dont focus on the target nor the front sight. its almost like i allow both to blur and would be focusing somewhere in the middle of this distance... sounds stupid but its what i was taught in the corps and has worked for me for years! yea a front sight will cover lots of ground at distance, but im not shooting at a 3" pasty when i do this sort of shooting. i may use a 8-12" shoot n c and just keep my aim consistent for center mass.

allow me to travel back in time some years. during the OLD USMC RIFLE QUAL (before the use of an ACOG was permitted) we would be required to shoot a man sized silouet target( "E" targer-20" wide x 40"tall) at 500 yards from the prone. now the front sight post would be nearly three times the width of this target, but if your aim center mass with great SP SA and shoot in a consistent manner it becomes second nature.

back to reality- i tell my shooting buddies this all the time and i think its the best tip i can ever give (if the shooter has the basic fundamentals down perfectly). take a 1 inch pasty and put it out at a distance, say 75 ft to where the front post covers it completely, and do some good quality snap it time. i do this for about 30 mins the night before i go out shooting and it always seems to keep me fresh on my abilities.

hope this helps out some

 

[mike8170]

This is a 16" mid length with 1/7. I was using 55g remington .223. Where can I get the marksmanship manual?

With the 1/7 twist, 55 gr ammo is useless beyond 100 meters unless you are being overrun. All you will get is a sh*tload of keyholes. Go with some 62 gr M855 Ball, or 77 gr open tipped boat tail and that alone will tighten your group.
I will check my boxes, I think I have a couple of extra manuals, and I will PM you.

God, I love it! I feel like a Platoon Sergeant again

 

[SouthBendIN]

for me personally, it boils down to where my eye focuses. i dont focus on the target nor the front sight. its almost like i allow both to blur and would be focusing somewhere in the middle of this distance... sounds stupid but its what i was taught in the corps and has worked for me for years! yea a front sight will cover lots of ground at distance, but im not shooting at a 3" pasty when i do this sort of shooting. i may use a 8-12" shoot n c and just keep my aim consistent for center mass.

allow me to travel back in time some years. during the OLD USMC RIFLE QUAL (before the use of an ACOG was permitted) we would be required to shoot a man sized silouet target( "E" targer-20" wide x 40"tall) at 500 yards from the prone. now the front sight post would be nearly three times the width of this target, but if your aim center mass with great SP SA and shoot in a consistent manner it becomes second nature.

back to reality- i tell my shooting buddies this all the time and i think its the best tip i can ever give (if the shooter has the basic fundamentals down perfectly). take a 1 inch pasty and put it out at a distance, say 75 ft to where the front post covers it completely, and do some good quality snap it time. i do this for about 30 mins the night before i go out shooting and it always seems to keep me fresh on my abilities.

hope this helps out some

what do you mean by "snap it time"?

 

[dross]

With the 1/7 twist, 55 gr ammo is useless beyond 100 meters unless you are being overrun. All you will get is a sh*tload of keyholes. Go with some 62 gr M855 Ball, or 77 gr open tipped boat tail and that alone will tighten your group.
I will check my boxes, I think I have a couple of extra manuals, and I will PM you.

God, I love it! I feel like a Platoon Sergeant again

I shoot 55s in my 1/7 with great accuracy, no keyholes.

Why would you get keyholes with overstabilization?

 

[PriestEG]

snap it time- dry fire practicing in the 4 common positions. spend about 7-8 mins/ position which will get your roughly 35-40 trigger pulls per position. this is used for practicing the basic act of SP SA, trigger pull, position, etc etc..

in the image above, a company of marines are circle around a 55gal drum with the different targets painted on it and will spend roughly 6 hours a day x 5 days prior to the week of a rifle qualification. practice makes good.. perfect practice makes perfect


VVVV a video of a future marine in bootcamp during "grass week" snapping in
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57h5Dzdx9yA[/ame]


VVVVV another video of a PMI (primary marksmanship instructor) and his platoon of young devil dogs in boot camp snapping in... this is the long version of the above video
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPgkACv7grk[/ame]

 

[PriestEG]

last video i will add to this thread as i feel i have overtaken in with my USMC propoganda... but its a good video on basics which i believe was in question by the OP and several others

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW-Q7ZsGQG4&feature=related[/ame]

 

[the1kidd03]

LOAD!!!!!.....Make READY!.....FIRE....................Cease fire, unload, show clear

LOVE IT...lol
thanks for the videos Priest.....brings back good memories and flashes.....love our Marine Corps

it sounds so odd to hear someone ask what "snap in" is lol