AR-15 Accuracy Questions (Pic Heavy)

[ol' Huff]

I knew that real-deal High Power shooters were impressive, but when I heard folks talking about typical match-winning High Power groups (1-1.5 MOA) at the Atterbury Appleseed in June, this blew my mind.

......

I can do 4 MOA groups from prone pretty easily. 3 MOA without too much trouble most of the time, and I've had a few 2 MOA groups here and there when I had my sling tension just right, got good and comfortable into position, and found a rock-solid NPOA. Shrinking that in half boggles my mind right now, and the ability to repeat that over and over again is what separates the Master and High Masters from everyone else, I'm guessing.

It shouldn't blow your mind. Those were fundamentally sound shooters with real, tangible experience (not internet flububbery) who had been exposed to sound coaching for a period of time and who, at least in a couple cases, routinely dry practice in their homes. No one ever has a moment where they can come out of the stands and play in the NFL, but they can work hard and stay focused and find their way onto the field through effort. A person will perform exactly to the level of skill their knowledge, preparation, and practice has prepared them for. None of those people shooting those groups were Hipower competitors, but that did not exclude them from good shooting practices or negate their skill. Good shooting skill is available to us all, but it can never be bought in a bubble pack on aisle 9. In at least two cases those groups were produced with regular old Colt uppers and barrels and run of the mill 5.5 pound triggers.

Also, the above post hits on a critical element of understanding. For those that begin shooting with a sling and that set of fundamentals being discussed, as group sizes shrink the volume of effort required to improve becomes a wider gulf. Think of it in terms of the Appleseed AQT. The distance between a 160 average and a 210 average can seem far to a person shooting 160 but it truly isn't. A very modest amount of perseverance, teachable attitude, and repetition will accomplish the goal. Most folks can do it in a relatively brief period of time if they apply themselves. Though difficult to understand to the shooter posting 160s, the gulf between an average of 210 and 230 is even greater, much greater actually, and takes almost a doubling of dedication, application, humility, good coaching, and perseverance. For those who get into the stratosphere of taking their 230s scores and making them 240s every time the thing becomes so distant, so great in scale, that it becomes difficult to see what exactly you need to do to accomplish it. The amount of focus, slickness, understanding, efficiency, humility, awareness and confidence is even more daunting. Getting from 160 to 210 is easy. Getting to or being in the 220s is not that hard. Being a 235 shooter every day of the week took real effort. Being a 245 shooter...

 

[red46239]

UPDATE:

Another INGO member (he can claim credit if he'd like) offered to let me come out to his place and try out some of his 77gr reloads, his triggers, and shoot a few rounds. Here are the results:

All shooting was done at 50 yards from a bench with a bipod with a rear sandbag.

First, I shot a 6-shot group (was supposed to be 5 but got carried away) with the 75gr Hornaday that I picked up. Then I shot a 4-shot group with his 77gr reloads (Sierra Matchking bullets). Again, was supposed to shoot 5, but only loaded 4.... long week... Then he shot the same targets (different POA) with the same rounds. He was able to actually count to 5 twice where I failed. Here are the targets:

Next, I shot two 5 round groups - one with 55gr Remmington UMC, one with 62gr M855. Here is that target:

Next, we put my upper on his lower with a Jard single stage trigger and I shot 3 ten shot groups. First with his 77gr reloads, then with the 75gr Hornaday, then with the 69gr Matchkings. Here are the targets:

What I took away from all of this:
1. The swivel stud did negatively affect my groups (no surprise). Thank you Jonny. If I can get to Lafayette soon I'll look you up and buy you a beer. If you are ever around Indy, let me know.
2. My rifle prefers the 77gr (matchking) reloads over anything else, and especially over the 55gr.
3. My rifle actually seems to prefer the 69gr matchkings over the 75gr Hornaday. Not sure what to make of this, just thought it was interesting.
4. The 55gr is pretty much a no-go for any kind of accuracy out of my rifle.
5. I need to shoot some more groups with the 62gr before I can decide either way. It will obviously not ever group as well as the heavier rounds, but it may very well be good enough to play around with, plink, etc. (much cheaper too...). The first 4 shots above grouped reasonably, the last shot (high and right) was a flyer. I need a larger sample size to really see how it does.
6. My trigger is a lot heavier than I'd like it to be (already knew that, but it really drove the other shooter nuts).
7. The Jard trigger is awesome. It was a single stage by the way.
8. I need to take Andrew's reloading class and start producing my own ammo.
9. INGO is awesome (this probably should have been #1).

That is all for now. Thank you to everyone who took the time to read through all of this and offered suggestions.

 

[red46239]

I did swing by the 1500 today, but the line was 1/2 way down the south side of the building so I passed. I may try to get back out there on Sunday to find the Geissele trigger jigs just to see.

Edited to add: My fellow Ingoer and I were not sure how to pronounce Geissele. It was driving me nuts so I googled it. For anyone too embarrassed to ask, it's GUYS-LEE.

 

[BrinNutz]

That won't solve the problem, trust me. You should just give it to me since it's obviously defective. =P

 

[red46239]

That won't solve the problem, trust me. You should just give it to me since it's obviously defective. =P

Yup, it's a piece of crap. Just threw it in the dumpster...

 

[jonny4523]

Looks good. You really need to try out that GUYS-LEE though. They are the bee's knees. The whole single stage / two stage is just user preference. The lower weight and the smoothness of the pull are what's important. If you end up going to the 1500 today and find that booth, compare a single stage side by side to a 2 stage. In Geissele models: try an S3G / SD-3G (single stage "hybrid") next to an SSA-E (2 stage). Both are smooth as butter (I have both).

 

[dhamby]

There are ways to improve your trigger as well. Do a nice polish job on the sear, install some jp 4-4.5lbs springs, and do the set screw mod to remove any extra take up. Makes a world of difference fof less than $20.

 

[j706]

I did swing by the 1500 today, but the line was 1/2 way down the south side of the building so I passed. I may try to get back out there on Sunday to find the Geissele trigger jigs just to see.

Edited to add: My fellow Ingoer and I were not sure how to pronounce Geissele. It was driving me nuts so I googled it. For anyone too embarrassed to ask, it's GUYS-LEE.

Shop ebay for the budget Geissele. I forget the model number but it is a two stage trigger without the fancy engraving. It is a superb trigger for under two bills. Love mine. Also imo 77 grn. SMK's or Nosler 77 grainers are awesome shooting bullets from any quality 1/7 or 1/8 twist tube. I am forced by policy to use 75 grn TAP for a precision duty load and it is pretty accurate, but nothing like just about any 77 grain bullet in my experience. Fun stuff chasing down a good load. Start loading your own and never look back. Almost as fun as shooting IMO