AR-15 Accuracy Questions (Pic Heavy)

[red46239]

Im fairly certain you have it figured out. Like I said I didnt shoot for groups, but I saw the splash on steel right on the cross hairs every time, so something has to have changed.

Yep. That could be a big issue. Fortunately, the solution is inexpensive.

I sure hope so... When my wife got home I had the kitchen table covered with guns and cleaning items and big smile on my face (just found the swivel stud). She said "oh crap, what did you buy now?" Priceless.

 

[jonny4523]

I'm glad you found the issue. Report back with the change in group size.

Just out of curiosity, how much is it going to cost to have USDS work over your trigger?

If you'd like, I'll let you try a bunch of triggers, from Rock River to Geisseles... if you come to lafayette....and bring me my beer!!!

Or, there is one table in particular at the 1500 that have several Geissele trial triggers in jigs. You won't be disappointed. Ask ANY NRA highpower shooter which trigger is the best. You'll get 1 answer.

 

[red46239]

I'm glad you found the issue. Report back with the change in group size.

Just out of curiosity, how much is it going to cost to have USDS work over your trigger?

If you'd like, I'll let you try a bunch of triggers, from Rock River to Geisseles... if you come to lafayette....and bring me my beer!!!

Or, there is one table in particular at the 1500 that have several Geissele trial triggers in jigs. You won't be disappointed. Ask ANY NRA highpower shooter which trigger is the best. You'll get 1 answer.

$50. There is a thread here: https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...8-best-ar-15-trigger-jobs-usds-get-there.html

Do you know what table has the triggers in jigs? I may have to swing by on Friday just to check it out.

I appreciate the offer. If this really is the issue, I may have to take you up on it just to bring you the beer!

 

[jonny4523]

Some idiot installed the swivel stud so it was hitting the gas block tweaking the barrel a little bit... . It is now moved... I also checked my scope mounting and tightened up the bases to the rail (probably okay, but just wanted to make sure). Finally, I went through and cleaned the barrel very thoroughly.

A couple more suggestions if I may:

1. I don't clean my guns very often. But when I do, I use a JP bore guide!
2. I've made it a habit to mark any screw with an indexing mark so that I know if they are to ever loosen up on me. Anything that has a required torque and is essential to function in one way or another. I use a Sharpie paint marker in bright red. It brings attention, but that's the point. It might be a little over kill, but I'm an engineer, so it seemed logical to me. If I were you and I had a scope base mounted and torqued, I'd add indexing marks so that I knew instantly if one were to ever loosen up on me.

Here's an example on another one of my builds:

 

[jonny4523]

Do you know what table has the triggers in jigs? I may have to swing by on Friday just to check it out.

I don't. But last few times I was looking and found, they were the only table that had them. If you have not seen what the Geissele jigs look like, it looks like this:

I appreciate the offer. If this really is the issue, I may have to take you up on it just to bring you the beer!

Just be warned, I'm a beer snob. None of that light stuff for me!

 

[TTB Yeee]

just as a point of reference, I'm using an 18" WOA 7-twist, wylde chambered barrel...
I'm getting consistent 1.25" 5-shot groups out of the cheap 55gr Hornaday fmjbt-wc bullets over 25.0 gr h335. No load development, just put a load together.

I'm only using a 4x scope that doesn't have the best reticle for groups (vortex pst) and I'm battling an astigmatism in my dominant eye. I'd love to get a 16x on top of the gun because I bet I could get it under 1" w/ a more consistent aim point (but <1.5 moa is plenty accurate for my needs: 3-gun).

-rvb

I was about to say the same thing. I'm shooting undeveloped reloads (55gr bullet) with a 3x scope, and grouping about 1.5" shooting off my range bag @ 100 yards. My AR is pretty much a basic PSA AR with the MI 12" rail (16" 1/7 twist), so shooting quality ammo may do wonders for you. The 69 gr ammo shot pretty well, but I would expect the 55gr to do much better.

I'm not saying my reloads are quality by any means, but I'm sure they are better than most off the shelf 55 gr bulk ammo. I'm sure if I loaded heavier bullets, my grouping may slightly improve. I'm sure that I'm holding my rifle back quite a bit too.

Hopefully the swivel stud was the "issue"

 

[jrh84]

1-1.5 MOA 10 shot groups are nothing to be too worried about, especially without a rear support. I'll take a 1.5 MOA 10 shot group over a cherry picked .75 MOA 3 round group all day. I've seen very few rifles do a legitimate sub-MOA 10 round or even 5 round groups, and even fewer shooters that can turn them out consistently. I agree that your rifle has some room for improvement with the sling stud (reminds me of something Id do), but it's more than capable of putting down an Appleseed Rifleman score.

 

[DRob]

I have a Timney and a Jewel. The Jewel is good but the Timney is better and is a very easy to install modular type. I hear lots of talk about how good the RRA 2-stage trigger is but you'll believe otherwise if you try one of the good after-market triggers.

I refer to the military ammo as "crap" because, for the type of shooting we do, it is. If all you want to be able to do is hit a man-sized silhouette at 50-100 yards then it's good enough. If you want to hit a prairie dog at 300-400 or stack bullets into 1" at 200 it's crap of the highest order. It's just a matter of expectations.

I used a 1 piece rest several years ago and find much finer adjustment is possible with a good front rest and a decent rear bag.

 

[ViperJock]

OP did the swivel fix it? So 5 pages in, I'm gonna say something I haven't seen said much. At least directly. Assuming you don't have equipment failure, even the cheap ammo should group a lot better than that at a 100yds. From a rest. With a scope. I'm not trying to be a jerk or hurt anyone's feelings, but maybe some practice and or instruction might be useful before you start trying to find a perfect load. For all I know you are a sniper and this is a complete anomaly for you but those are my 2 cents. IME improving your load improves your group by fractions of an inch at ranges that close.

Also I think sand bags are better than most rests i see people using. but that's my opinion so take it for what it's worth.

2nd also, I'd go ahead and get the better trigger anyway cause you will thank yourself later for it.

Anyway, I hope you fixed the mechanical issue and your groups are now being confused with a single bullet hole.

 

[Leo]

To clarify requirements for NRA highpower. The 20 barrel (A2 configuration) with a fixed carry handle and sight set up is the requirement for "Service rifle" class. If you have an iron sighted AR of any other rifle barrel length or type of iron sights, you can still shoot it, but you have to enter as "Match Rifle" class.

For some matches, smaller targets are subsituted to compensate for the lack of a true 600 yard course. On these reduced distance matches, the shorter barrel is less of a problem ballistically. Loss of sight radius on a shorter rifle is a disadvantage from an operational point of view.

 

[Yeah]

I've seen very few rifles do a legitimate sub-MOA 10 round or even 5 round groups, and even fewer shooters that can turn them out consistently

I've never seen a rifle do it, but I know a few shooters who do.

 

[sloughfoot]

Dupe. Don't ask me how I did it....

 

[sloughfoot]

High Power shooters shoot 10 round groups in a time limit from position using a sling. And iron sights. 200,300, and 600 yards. Sub-moa is performed frequently by Master and High Master shooters.

Pretty little knots on the target.

Leo...They have changed the rules since you shot your last match. Detachable carry handles are now allowed.

 

[CBR1000rr]

I have a box of Hornady 75gr BTHP you can try. Let me know and I can bring them to work with me one day.

 

[Leo]

Thanks for the update Sloughfoot.

 

[jrh84]

High Power shooters shoot 10 round groups in a time limit from position using a sling. And iron sights. 200,300, and 600 yards. Sub-moa is performed frequently by Master and High Master shooters.

Pretty little knots on the target.

Agreed....I was just saying that shooters who can routinely put those groups down are few and far between, and that most rifles that a magazine gun review claims are .5 MOA capable are nowhere near that when you step up to 10 round groups.

I knew that real-deal High Power shooters were impressive, but when I heard folks talking about typical match-winning High Power groups (1-1.5 MOA) at the Atterbury Appleseed in June, this blew my mind.

I thought I was doing pretty well...39/40 hits on the last AQT on Sunday (20" Rock River Predator, 3-9X Burris, free Wolf Ammo), but more than anything, I realized just how much I have to learn if I wanted to be competitive in High Power. An easy, full value, 10 mph wind kicked my butt @ 300 and 400 yards at first, and I goofed up my come-ups Saturday a couple of times.

I can do 4 MOA groups from prone pretty easily. 3 MOA without too much trouble most of the time, and I've had a few 2 MOA groups here and there when I had my sling tension just right, got good and comfortable into position, and found a rock-solid NPOA. Shrinking that in half boggles my mind right now, and the ability to repeat that over and over again is what separates the Master and High Masters from everyone else, I'm guessing.

 

[red46239]

A couple more suggestions if I may:

1. I don't clean my guns very often. But when I do, I use a JP bore guide!
2. I've made it a habit to mark any screw with an indexing mark so that I know if they are to ever loosen up on me. Anything that has a required torque and is essential to function in one way or another. I use a Sharpie paint marker in bright red. It brings attention, but that's the point. It might be a little over kill, but I'm an engineer, so it seemed logical to me. If I were you and I had a scope base mounted and torqued, I'd add indexing marks so that I knew instantly if one were to ever loosen up on me.

Good suggestions, thank you.

 

[red46239]

OP did the swivel fix it? So 5 pages in, I'm gonna say something I haven't seen said much. At least directly. Assuming you don't have equipment failure, even the cheap ammo should group a lot better than that at a 100yds. From a rest. With a scope. I'm not trying to be a jerk or hurt anyone's feelings, but maybe some practice and or instruction might be useful before you start trying to find a perfect load. For all I know you are a sniper and this is a complete anomaly for you but those are my 2 cents. IME improving your load improves your group by fractions of an inch at ranges that close.

Also I think sand bags are better than most rests i see people using. but that's my opinion so take it for what it's worth.

2nd also, I'd go ahead and get the better trigger anyway cause you will thank yourself later for it.

Anyway, I hope you fixed the mechanical issue and your groups are now being confused with a single bullet hole.

I haven't been able to get out and shoot some more groups yet... Hopefully this weekend.

My no means do I believe myself to be a sniper or a pro level shooter. I am always working to improve myself as a shooter. I do believe that I am good enough to produce better groups than I was getting... I appreciate the input.

 

[red46239]

I have a box of Hornady 75gr BTHP you can try. Let me know and I can bring them to work with me one day.

Thanks for the offer. I actually just picked up a couple of boxes from Bradis earlier.

 

[red46239]

I don't. But last few times I was looking and found, they were the only table that had them. If you have not seen what the Geissele jigs look like, it looks like this:

Just be warned, I'm a beer snob. None of that light stuff for me!

Thanks for the photo. I'm planning on running by the show on Friday. I'll see if I can find them and give them a feel.