AR-15 Accuracy Questions (Pic Heavy)

[red46239]

1. Even with a 1:7 twist. All of my 1:7 barrels (Noveske, WOA, & BCM) give me very nice results. I have a picture somewhere that I took of a group I shot with the noveske putting them darn near all in 1 hole at 50 yards. I've shot sub MOA with 55gr ammo using my 1:8 Loki barrel. The BCM barrels don't usually get shot for groups. But I'd be willing to be they group very nicely.
2. My only concern with torque would be if it were too loose.
3. Do you hand load? There are some awesome recipes for these heavier bullets. Of course, Federal makes some really nice match grade rounds with the 77 sierras if you are willing to pay for it.
4. You should find a buddy with a nice 2 stage and maybe borrow his lower? Or if you're ever up in the Lafayette area, I'd be more than willing to take you out and let you try it with both Rock River and Geissele triggers.

6. That Midwest rail is pretty skinny. Which gas block are you using? How much clearance around the gas block and rail do you have? I have seen builds where even though they are technically free floating the barrel, but once pressure is applied to the rail, it'll actually deflect enough to hit the gas block. Obviously, just setting it on a sled shouldn't give you that much deflection. I've also seen where the wrong rail / combo was used and it takes the free float function away. My first build I was using a Troy Vtac alpha rail with a Troy clamp on gas block. Once installed, it was easy to tell that the bottom of the rail would easily contact the bottom of the gas block clamp with a little pressure. Not idea when you're building a 3-gun rifle.

1. I would have thought so too...
2. What I figured
3. Not yet, will get there soon.
4. I don't. I appreciate the offer, but I'm rarely near Lafayette.
6. Using a YHM low profile (set screw) block. I believe it is plenty clear, but I'll check when I get home.

 

[rvb]

16" WOA stainless match barrel 1 in 7", chambered in .223 Wylde

3. Being a 1:7 twist, your barrel is going to like a longer bullet (69s). If you want even better accuracy, try a longer bullet (75gr hornady or 77gr sierra).

just as a point of reference, I'm using an 18" WOA 7-twist, wylde chambered barrel...
I'm getting consistent 1.25" 5-shot groups out of the cheap 55gr Hornaday fmjbt-wc bullets over 25.0 gr h335. No load development, just put a load together.

I'm only using a 4x scope that doesn't have the best reticle for groups (vortex pst) and I'm battling an astigmatism in my dominant eye. I'd love to get a 16x on top of the gun because I bet I could get it under 1" w/ a more consistent aim point (but <1.5 moa is plenty accurate for my needs: 3-gun).

-rvb

 

[teddy12b]

I was going to mention something about triggers also, but it seems like everyone has beaten me to it. At a minimum I'd get the JP 3# spings that sell for $10 on Midway. That at least takes some of the weight off the trigger pull. The next step up $$ wise is the Rock River two stage. Either one of those improvements will cut your groups in half with the 69gr matchkings.

 

[red46239]

just as a point of reference, I'm using an 18" WOA 7-twist, wylde chambered barrel...
I'm getting consistent 1.25" 5-shot groups out of the cheap 55gr Hornaday fmjbt-wc bullets over 25.0 gr h335. No load development, just put a load together.

I'm only using a 4x scope that doesn't have the best reticle for groups (vortex pst) and I'm battling an astigmatism in my dominant eye. I'd love to get a 16x on top of the gun because I bet I could get it under 1" w/ a more consistent aim point (but <1.5 moa is plenty accurate for my needs: 3-gun).

-rvb

Thanks for rubbing it in... lol

 

[red46239]

I was going to mention something about triggers also, but it seems like everyone has beaten me to it. At a minimum I'd get the JP 3# spings that sell for $10 on Midway. That at least takes some of the weight off the trigger pull. The next step up $$ wise is the Rock River two stage. Either one of those improvements will cut your groups in half with the 69gr matchkings.

I'm definitely going to do something with the trigger. Thanks for the input on the springs. I don't mind dropping the $$ on a good trigger (RR 2-stage, Geissele, etc.) if it will really make that much of a difference... I just can't believe the trigger would make the other types of ammo group as badly as they are... Especially when others say they are getting much better groups with similar setups.

 

[gregkl]

WOA is the way to go for Appleseed or Highpower specific rifles. But your lower with an A2 stock and quality 2-stage trigger. Than buy this upper:
White Oak Armament | Complete Uppers | High Power Competition | AR15 Upper Post-Ban

Or this one if you want a flash hider on it.
White Oak Armament | Complete Uppers | High Power Competition | AR15 Upper Pre-Ban

They build their uppers that meet all NRA highpower criteria but still free float the barrel. Only downside is that they are in high demand and lead times might be a little long right now.

Thanks. I was thinking I would go with an 16 or 18" barrel to keep the weight down. You think the 20" is really a lot better? I guess I could build one Service Rifle upper and then if I wanted to do something else, I could build a shorter barrel upper.

Too bad that they are not even taking orders right now on these two!

 

[red46239]

Shoot 77gr the military shoots 77 out of thier spr guns with a 1:7 twist. Notice your groups got worse as you went down in grains.

I plan on trying this as well as soon as I can find some...

 

[red46239]

Thanks. I was thinking I would go with an 16 or 18" barrel to keep the weight down. You think the 20" is really a lot better? I guess I could build one Service Rifle upper and then if I wanted to do something else, I could build a shorter barrel upper.

Too bad that they are not even taking orders right now on these two!

Greg, if you haven't already, I would suggest going to a 25yd (rimfire) Appleseed with a semi-auto .22LR (10/22, Rem 597, Marlin 795). Great events. If you do, talk to the instructors there about what you need. They are a great resource.

 

[gregkl]

Greg, if you haven't already, I would suggest going to a 25yd (rimfire) Appleseed with a semi-auto .22LR (10/22, Rem 597, Marlin 795). Great events. If you do, talk to the instructors there about what you need. They are a great resource.

My wife and I did one in September. We had a great time. We promote it to anyone who will listen. I am going to continue to go to them and will use my .22 but I think it would be fun to shoot a couple AQT's with a high power rifle and see how I can do. I thought about trying one with my Garand, but I have to figure out how to load just two rounds!

 

[teddy12b]

I'm definitely going to do something with the trigger. Thanks for the input on the springs. I don't mind dropping the $$ on a good trigger (RR 2-stage, Geissele, etc.) if it will really make that much of a difference... I just can't believe the trigger would make the other types of ammo group as badly as they are... Especially when others say they are getting much better groups with similar setups.

It's not that the trigger is effecting one type of ammo and not the other. The trigger is the #1 way to get better accuracy in my opinion. Here is another great option for you although it's out of stock: JP Enterprises Competition Trigger AR-15 Small Pin .154 3 lb Single
As bad as the market is right now, we are living in a golden era of rifle accuracy and quality triggers available for very reasonable prices. It's amazing what we can put together so easily in this country. You'll be amazed at how much difference the trigger will make. It has much more of an impact on your groups than free floating a barrel ever has.

 

[42769vette]

It looks like your FGMM 69gr bullets went 1 moa, or just above. I think thats a good start, but like others said as you went up in bullet weight you went down in group size, so it might not hurt to try and bump up the weight a little.

What ammo was I shooting threw the gun? I didn't shoot groups, but I could tell by the POI it was grouping pretty well. Once we get out of deer season bring it back out and Ill see if I can help.

The first thing I would change about your setup is the trigger (IF you decide to change something) The trigger effects the largest variable in accuracy (shooter error). Just remember Mr Geissele is your friend.

 

[Leo]

I thought about trying one with my Garand, but I have to figure out how to load just two rounds!

There are at least 4 ways to load two rounds into an M1 Garand. I know all 4 of them, I'll be glad to show you.

 

[rvb]

Thanks for rubbing it in... lol

just trying to say you shouldn't need 69's or 77s to get under 2" w/ your barrel. 55's should work fine. 55s not working in a 7-twist is the exception, not the rule, despite internet folklore...

-rvb

 

[red46239]

just trying to say you shouldn't need 69's or 77s to get under 2" w/ your barrel. 55's should work fine. 55s not working in a 7-twist is the exception, not the rule, despite internet folklore...

-rvb

I understood and appreciate the input. That is what has me baffled.

 

[red46239]

It looks like your FGMM 69gr bullets went 1 moa, or just above. I think thats a good start, but like others said as you went up in bullet weight you went down in group size, so it might not hurt to try and bump up the weight a little.

What ammo was I shooting threw the gun? I didn't shoot groups, but I could tell by the POI it was grouping pretty well. Once we get out of deer season bring it back out and Ill see if I can help.

The first thing I would change about your setup is the trigger (IF you decide to change something) The trigger effects the largest variable in accuracy (shooter error). Just remember Mr Geissele is your friend.

I was trying to figure that out yesterday... I'm pretty sure it was some of the UMC Rem. 55gr.

I may take you up on the offer, thanks!

 

[jonny4523]

Thanks. I was thinking I would go with an 16 or 18" barrel to keep the weight down. You think the 20" is really a lot better? I guess I could build one Service Rifle upper and then if I wanted to do something else, I could build a shorter barrel upper.

Too bad that they are not even taking orders right now on these two!

It's not that I think the 20" is all that much better. You'll get a little big of extra speed out of it, but you can still get darn near the same accuracy at 100 yards. I think accuracy would probably be more noticed at 600 yards. I simply recommended those because you mentioned shooting NRA highpower service rifle and I think they require you to have a 20" (but don't quote me on that). My only 20" is my Service Rifle. My 3 Gun rifle is an 18", my two all purpose rifles are 16" midlengths, and then the 10.5 is just plain fun (and still darn accurate).

I was trying to figure that out yesterday... I'm pretty sure it was some of the UMC Rem. 55gr.

I may take you up on the offer, thanks!

If in doubt about accuracy of a 55gr through a 1:7, check out this group. It's with a Noveske 10.5" barrel 1:7 twist. It was only at 25 yards, but it's 10 shots.

 

[red46239]

Alright, got home and started looking things over... specifically the clearance between the gas block and the rail that Jonny brought up... well I found plenty of clearance except for this:

Some idiot installed the swivel stud so it was hitting the gas block tweaking the barrel a little bit... . It is now moved... I also checked my scope mounting and tightened up the bases to the rail (probably okay, but just wanted to make sure). Finally, I went through and cleaned the barrel very thoroughly.

Alan, thinking back, I originally had the swivel stud installed at the very end hole (clear of the gas block). When we put the bipod on at your place, I did not like how it hung over past the end of the rail, so I moved it back a hole (where it hit the gas block) when I got home. This gives me hope that this is at least most of my problem.

I am still going to have the guys at USDS work over my trigger and see how it goes from there. I will still consider adding a 2-stage trigger later on as per the many suggestions. I'd like to feel one to see how I like it first....

I will probably not be able to get back down to shoot some more groups until next weekend, unless I can slip out of work early one day this week. I will report back with hopefully some better results.

Thank you to all that have posted here. Please post any other thoughts if you have them.

Here are a couple of pictures of her all cleaned up (sorry for the bad iphone pics):

 

[42769vette]

Im fairly certain you have it figured out. Like I said I didnt shoot for groups, but I saw the splash on steel right on the cross hairs every time, so something has to have changed.

 

[Manatee]

Yep. That could be a big issue. Fortunately, the solution is inexpensive.

 

[red46239]

If in doubt about accuracy of a 55gr through a 1:7, check out this group. It's with a Noveske 10.5" barrel 1:7 twist. It was only at 25 yards, but it's 10 shots.

Nice! I didn't have any doubt when I bought the barrel... Did my research and it sounded like I should be able to shoot 55 or 62gr with good accuracy while having the flexibility to bump up to 77gr if I ever wanted to... at least that was my thought process at the time.

If the swivel stud is my issue, I owe you a beer.