A New .45 Project for Deer Season

[phatgemi]

Sounds like a good cartridge. Good luck with it. I know folks are doing something similar by just shortening the 45/70 to 1.800.

Also, I have wondered if anybody is looking at a "44 Maximum", as has been done with the 357 Mag. I'd imagine a 44 Mag case stretched to 1.800 would be a good round as well.

Does anyone know a lever gun chambered in 44 Mag that could cycle a round 0.175" longer than the standard 44 mag length? I realize the chamber would have to be reamed. Is this feasible? Thanks.

Not sure if a lever gun will work but the .445 supermag is just a reamed .44 mag. Not 1.8 but quite a load. Just about the perfect whitetail dose.....

 

[Skip]

Just sent for a reamer to do my Encore 44Mag Pro Hunter barrel. Will let you all know.
I do have a perfect 45 caliber BRUSH gun/ammo combination already.
Puma rifle with these in it:

250gr as pictured, Linbaugh loading of H110 for almost 1900fps from the 20" levergun.
Close range, if that don't get it done, it can't be done!

 

[Broom_jm]

Sounds like a good cartridge. Good luck with it. I know folks are doing something similar by just shortening the 45/70 to 1.800.

Also, I have wondered if anybody is looking at a "44 Maximum", as has been done with the 357 Mag. I'd imagine a 44 Mag case stretched to 1.800 would be a good round as well.

Does anyone know a lever gun chambered in 44 Mag that could cycle a round 0.175" longer than the standard 44 mag length? I realize the chamber would have to be reamed. Is this feasible? Thanks.

As mentioned, there is a 445 Super Mag, which was developed by Elgin Gates along with the 357 Maximum and the 41 Super Mag.

Also, the 444 Marlin is nothing more than a 44RM stretched out even more, to 2.225". Trim that back to 1.800" and you've got a 44 Super DUPER Mag. The problem is, it wouldn't be much more powerful than the 445SM, so not really worth the effort.

Neither is the trimmed 45/70, really...if you want big-boy 45 power, buy a 460S&W Katahdin barrel for your Encore and be done with it.

 

[Skip]

"Also, the 444 Marlin is nothing more than a 44RM stretched out even more"
Already tried that and you cannot load them in the 44Mag dies. There is enough difference in the head of the case, not the rim but the head, that they will not go in to the shell holder, at least not on my Dillon RL450B.

The 445SM is goning to be the way to go for me BUT only because I have other 44Mag stuff already. I looked at a 460S&W barrel but decided to go 445SM instead. Just me though.

 

[UncleNorby]

The problem is, it wouldn't be much more powerful than the 445SM, so not really worth the effort.

I'm thinking some would feel it's worthy to pursue, if enough guns in 44 mag could simply be reamed to 44 Super Duper, and be good to go.

Especially Marlin 94s and Win 94s. I don't know if it would cyle in either, though I suspect the Winchester would or could be made to. I'd imagine Handi Rifles and some bolt guns would be doable. The Ruger 77 maybe not due to the magazine.

I'm thinking it would be a lot like a 460 S&W, which shows one corbon load at 2300 fps with a 200 grain bullet (pistol velocity, not rifle). Case would be the same length, slightly smaller diameter, but perhaps with a 180 grain bullet. Is there a 180 gr 44 Mag bullet that is not a hollow point? I'm thinking even a 200 gr bullet should be over 2000 fps in a rifle barrel.

 

[Clay]

Very cool write up!

Now, have you ever given thought that if this works, maybe having someone make you a proper barrel? There is a least one guy here on INGO that could probably do it.

 

[Matt52]

As far as the jump of the bullet into the rifling couldnt you just seat the bullet to normal 45-70 length and elimante the jump or perhaps use a longer heavier bullet?

 

[Matt52]

Forget using it in lever guns it would be sweet to use it in a Sharps rifle. Now If I can just find the 1800 dollars to buy a Shiloh sharps we would be set lol. Do you think you could load this round for blackpowder?

 

[45-70]

As far as the jump of the bullet into the rifling couldnt you just seat the bullet to normal 45-70 length and elimante the jump or perhaps use a longer heavier bullet?

Like these? 450 gainer in a 1.8" case.

2.525 OAL

 

[Broom_jm]

@ 45/70 -- How do those heavies compare with the normal OAL of a full-length cartridge? Also, what powder are you using and what range of pressure are you shooting for?

 

[Matt52]

Like these? 450 gainer in a 1.8" case.

2.225 OAL

Exactly. I guess great minds think a like

 

[45-70]

@ 45/70 -- How do those heavies compare with the normal OAL of a full-length cartridge? Also, what powder are you using and what range of pressure are you shooting for?

These are seated to 2.525, .030 under max OAL of 2.550 with a 37 grain charge of Accurate 2230 and Winchester LRP to keep the pressure under 28,000. Average velocity is 1510 fps. These cycle perfectly in my old 22" marlin 1895.

 

[snapping turtle]

When you start putting 450 grain bullets in a rifle and reducing the powder charge then you start getting those football arch trajectories. Also you start upping the recoil or at least felt recoil. That round is going to kick like a 20 gauge shotgun sabot.

I bet that the biggest of North american deer would drop to that round along with cape buff and rino.

When i first start thinking around with the original PcR rounds i wanted to pick up some distance and easier on the shoulder shoot as well as reduced ammo expense. Well the newest sabot rounds for shotguns get you around 200 yards on a deer size target with the right combo and practice..

It came down to handloaded 44 mag, 357 MAX and 454 casual. I wanted a lever so 44 mag it was. I had a T/c contender so a 357 max will be on the table at some time.

What I did look at was what my average distance to a kill shot was or could have been over the last 20 years. Under 100 for sure and more around 39 yards since I killed several out of corn field edges at the distance of 3 corn row or less than 10 feet each. I subtracted them. 44 mag was fine for my hunting areas.

The other weird indiana law is the pistol. So for long distance the 7-30 waters really shines on deer. If hunting a field edge where long shots are likely the pistol comes out.

For the main spots where the wood limits long shots and still hunting (My favorite)
the fast rifle comes out, a scout scope 44 mag.


I just believe the rifle list will be widder in a few years and 30-30 35 rem and 45-70 added to the list maybe a few others or a doe only anything goes weekend.

 

[Slow Hand]

Ok, now the experimenter in menus wondering what you couldndonwith say a 225 gr spitzers, .358 cal bullet in a sabot in that 1.8" .45/70 case..... I wonder if the sabot would stand up to the pressure and rifling twist, or even if the .45/70's rifling twist is appropriate for long .35 cal bullets.

 

[Skip]

Slow Hand,
I did that same thing with 44 caliber bullets, 50 caliber sabots and a Handi Rifle in 500 S&W. I used Trail Boss for one reason only, I knew I could not go over pressure. It worked, I guess I could say that, and was accurate enough to trust at close range.

I use Hornady sabots and some of my own cast boolits.

Here is what the sabots looked like when recovered:

And a target:

 

[Jeremiah]

A good freind of mine did this in Auburn, last year with great results.

One issue he worried about was that the guy who gave him the idea worked at whan's a gun store, lawn equipment supplier. Reportedly the DNR got a bit huffy as the case still said .45-70, and the rifle waqs marked for .45-70. I would recommend as a CYA measure anyone undertakes this path to a deer rifle make sure their truck, and pockets are devoid of any full length .45-70 brass, or live rounds.

 

[Matt52]

When you start putting 450 grain bullets in a rifle and reducing the powder charge then you start getting those football arch trajectories. Also you start upping the recoil or at least felt recoil. That round is going to kick like a 20 gauge shotgun sabot.
QUOTE]

I thought Rainbows and Recoil was a good thing

 

[Skip]

45/70 rounds have been being lobbed at stuff a long way away for a long, long, time with surprising accuracy and efficiency......Just sayin'

 

[Double T]

A good freind of mine did this in Auburn, last year with great results.

One issue he worried about was that the guy who gave him the idea worked at whan's a gun store, lawn equipment supplier. Reportedly the DNR got a bit huffy as the case still said .45-70, and the rifle waqs marked for .45-70. I would recommend as a CYA measure anyone undertakes this path to a deer rifle make sure their truck, and pockets are devoid of any full length .45-70 brass, or live rounds.

buuuuut, what does it matter if it fits within "the DNR box" of dimensions? The cartridge can say whatever it wants, if it has been trimmed down, it is no longer a 45-70. the point re: the gun being chambered in that as well is moot as .357/38 both work in a 357.

 

[Matt52]

45/70 rounds have been being lobbed at stuff a long way away for a long, long, time with surprising accuracy and efficiency......Just sayin'

Couldnt have said it better. Just ask the plains bison what the 45-70 and similar cartridges will do 45-90,45-120,50-90 etc