A Look At The Islamic State

[IndyDave1776]

Isn't that what the US military does (in part) to identify targets?

Perhaps so, but it is important to remember that we are engaged in war with a dangerous enemy. Marquis of Queensbury rules do not apply.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

IS blows up Arch of Triumph in Syria's Palmyra

 

[1DOWN4UP]

can this be true?TheCount.com ^

 

[PistolBob]

Isn't that what the US military does (in part) to identify targets?

No. US intelligence agencies may do that to identify the targets, then use the US military to carry out actions against those targets. ISIS and the US government are political factions seeking to destroy each other. There is nothing religious about it. The sooner Russia can wipe ISIS off the planet the better we'll all be....I just wonder what it's costing us letting Putin do the dirty work. American leadership is weak and getting weaker.

 

[T.Lex]

No. US intelligence agencies may do that to identify the targets, then use the US military to carry out actions against those targets.

Right. But again, isn't that what Daesh is doing. The criteria might be different (might not) but the tools and process are the same.

 

[PistolBob]

Right. But again, isn't that what Daesh is doing. The criteria might be different (might not) but the tools and process are the same.

So what? What is your point T.Lex? Are you trying to say ISIS is no worse than our own government?

 

[T.Lex]

So what? What is your point T.Lex? Are you trying to say ISIS is no worse than our own government?

Well, the point is two-fold:
1) How righteously indignant can we be about using social media for intel on potential targets when we do the same thing?

2) Isn't it somewhat ironic that white hat Merrica uses the same tools and process that black hat Tangoes?

I guess those points were too subtle?

 

[printcraft]

Well, the point is two-fold:
1) How righteously indignant can we be about using social media for intel on potential targets when we do the same thing?

2) Isn't it somewhat ironic that white hat Merrica uses the same tools and process that black hat Tangoes?

I guess those points were too subtle?

Apples and oranges.

A gun is a gun.... but...... There is a difference between a defensive use of a gun over an offensive use of a gun.

I don't remember America targeting the families of ISIS members for slaughter. I guess I could have missed it.

 

[T.Lex]

Apples and oranges.

A gun is a gun.... but...... There is a difference between a defensive use of a gun over an offensive use of a gun.

I don't remember America targeting the families of ISIS members for slaughter. I guess I could have missed it.

Is that really much of distinction? Our air/drone strikes have killed our enemies' family members, including family of our own citizens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdulrahman_al-Awlaki

Of course, the CIA didn't hit their "intended" target and anonymous sources say this guy was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The point about social media is absolutely apples and apples, although it might be Fuji v. Granny Smith.

Our criteria are (hopefully) different. Sometimes, I am not so sure.

But, the tools and methods are absolutely the same when it comes to social media.

ETA:
Interesting Snopes "mixed" on whether Daesh does this:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/homeaddress.asp

Yet, the USAF openly admits using social media and metadata in targeting:
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/2...-trying-to-stop-isis-using-social-media.shtml

 

[printcraft]

Ok, let me take another stab at this.......

The police using a facebook posting of a known felon posing with a stack of guns and drugs and using that as basis to effect an arrest......

A criminal using facebook posting of someone saying they are going on vacation and using that to rob their house....

Same thing?

 

[T.Lex]

Ok, let me take another stab at this.......

The police using a facebook posting of a known felon posing with a stack of guns and drugs and using that as basis to effect an arrest......

A criminal using facebook posting of someone saying they are going on vacation and using that to rob their house....

Same thing?

Yes. Am I missing something?

 

[printcraft]

Intent?

 

[T.Lex]

Intent?

To gain an advantage? To use available information to achieve the goal?

The desired outcomes are different, mostly. (In an abstract way, they are actually quite similar: to gain control of something/someone without their consent.) Societally, we condone one desired result.

But the method and the tool(s) are the same.

I guess I need to clarify, too, that this isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

[printcraft]

The same tools yes, but the examples I gave above attempted to show a distinction in how the tools are used.
I can use a hammer to build a house or bash in a head....... Same tool, different intent.
Context is important. *tangent*
A kid with a real gun in a school is not the same thing as a kid with a pop-tart gun. They don't both have a gun.
Zero tolerance policies leave a lot to be desired.

 

[T.Lex]

The same tools yes, but the examples I gave above attempted to show a distinction in how the tools are used.
I can use a hammer to build a house or bash in a head....... Same tool, different intent.

So I'm losing track, do we agree? Or is there a moral right to use a tool based on intent? That gets tricky, too. You can only use X if you believe Y.

Context is important. *tangent*
A kid with a real gun in a school is not the same thing as a kid with a pop-tart gun. They don't both have a gun.
Zero tolerance policies leave a lot to be desired.

Indeed, as Hough pointed out in a different thread, "zero tolerance" is another way to say "zero thought."

 

[PistolBob]

So I'm losing track, do we agree? Or is there a moral right to use a tool based on intent? That gets tricky, too. You can only use X if you believe Y.


Indeed, as Hough pointed out in a different thread, "zero tolerance" is another way to say "zero thought."

Has nothing to do with morality. ISIS and the US government is at war, ISIS and the Russians are at war, ISIS and the rest of the non-ISIS world is at war. It's a political tool not an exercise in morality. There is no morality in political decisions, only politics.

ISIS is a worse thing than the US government. If you don't think that is true, then go to Syria and tell them how Christian and moral you are. How long can you hold your breath?

 

[T.Lex]

Has nothing to do with morality. ISIS and the US government is at war, ISIS and the Russians are at war, ISIS and the rest of the non-ISIS world is at war. It's a political tool not an exercise in morality. There is no morality in political decisions, only politics.

ISIS is a worse thing than the US government. If you don't think that is true, then go to Syria and tell them how Christian and moral you are. How long can you hold your breath?

Not long enough.

And relax, I'm not the one injecting morality into it. In fact, using social media is a morally-neutral endeavor IMHO. (Well, morality of some stuff that gets posted doesn't really count.)

Ideally, war will only be waged when morally just. But, I recognize that is... uncommon.

 

[1DOWN4UP]

Judicial Watch ^ ISIS has crossed our border again.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Potayto, potahto;
Catholic, Calvinist;
Sunni, Shi'a....



Look, Catholics haven't always been as conciliatory as the modern church. Heck, I'm pretty sure the Baltimore Catechism taught that non-Catholics were heretics, and that was basically 1 generation ago.

I'm a relative late-comer to the Roman Catholic Church, but I've never read of the New Testament OR the Baltimore Catechism calling for the forceable conversion or execution of "heretics." The distinctions some of us are trying to make between Christianity and Islam are that those killing, maiming, forceably "converting", etc. are either acting against the teachings of their Holy Book (the New Testament, specifically) or they are acting in accordance with their Holy Book (Quran.) As far as I can tell (and I may be wrong) Indonesia is the ONLY country where the majority population is Islamic and they do not oppress minority religions.

And it seems I _was_ wrong. Read that one of the Indonesian states is running Christians and other religions out; burning churches and bashing church-goers as they leave.

 

[1DOWN4UP]

DailyMail.com ^ Now they are rioting in Sweden