A Look At The Islamic State

[ArmedProgrammer]

We need less friends....

If we believe that we need to lower the number of friends/allies then how about selectively choosing them and quietly discussing our differences? Instead of walking up on their lawn at midday, dropping trow, and taking a dump on their porch for all to see? Is that not exactly what we did, in diplomatic terms?

Would it not be wiser to SELECTIVELY and PRIVATELY pull them aside and say - "we don't have the same interests in common in the matter XYZ"?

 

[T.Lex]

Honestly, I've never heard the "prophecy" thing in relation to our foreign policy. Frankly, that idea is out of touch with reality.

IMHO, our support for Israel is based in a commonality of principles - i.e. freedom, tolerance, rule of law, etc. Not to mention it is one of the few representative democracies in that part of the world.

Oh, then there's the fact that a healthy percentage of their citizens are or were US citizens. That helps.

Then there's the point that in the US, supporters of Israel vote for politicians that support Israel. That's an important consideration when it comes to forming US policy.

None of that has to do with any prophecy. Or Daesh, either, really.

 

[jamil]

Honestly, I've never heard the "prophecy" thing in relation to our foreign policy. Frankly, that idea is out of touch with reality.

IMHO, our support for Israel is based in a commonality of principles - i.e. freedom, tolerance, rule of law, etc. Not to mention it is one of the few representative democracies in that part of the world.

Oh, then there's the fact that a healthy percentage of their citizens are or were US citizens. That helps.

Then there's the point that in the US, supporters of Israel vote for politicians that support Israel. That's an important consideration when it comes to forming US policy.

None of that has to do with any prophecy. Or Daesh, either, really.

I think there's not a shortage of citizens who favor policies based on prophecy. However, I think I mostly agree that at the highest levels, prophecy does not factor in much with foreign policy.

 

[printcraft]

Isn't the basis for most supporters defending Israel to hold off the prophecy? If Israel falls, it's the start of the tribulation?

Went off into the weeds a little bit on this one bringing Israel into the discussion of ISIS but I understand the point and I agree.

Now, here's where the ball gets back on the green. The people ISIS is murdering in Iraq and Syria are not Israeli.
Attacking ISIS has nothing to do with prophecy, it has everything to do with stopping people who are not compatible with the rest of the world.

I don't really care what their motivations or grievances are.
There are literally dozens of different religions that live peacefully among each other.
People who can't live peacefully among their neighbors despite differences have no place on the planet.

 

[jamil]

Went off into the weeds a little bit on this one bringing Israel into the discussion of ISIS but I understand the point and I agree.

Now, here's where the ball gets back on the green. The people ISIS is murdering in Iraq and Syria are not Israeli.
Attacking ISIS has nothing to do with prophecy, it has everything to do with stopping people who are not compatible with the rest of the world.

I don't really care what their motivations or grievances are.
There are literally dozens of different religions that live peacefully among each other.
People who can't live peacefully among their neighbors despite differences have no place on the planet.

I have to agree except for this point. Bush believed that the terrorists just hate our freedom. Obama believes that the terrorists are only people who are corrupting Islam so that they can con other "believers" into joining their cause. I believe that ISIS thinks it is fulfilling prophecy and that they want a confrontation with the West to help fulfill it.

I think the solutions will likely differ depending on which is the actual cause. If it's that they hate our freedom, let's just go in, **** up their leaders, show them freedom, and the rest should get the idea. We tried that. It didn't work. If it's just con artists, almost the same playbook, go in and **** up the con artists. The problem with that is it won't work if that's not the cause. We will have wasted our blood and risk being in worse shape a decade later like we are now.

However, if it's delusions of prophecy, yes, by all means, we still need to go in and **** 'em up, but we also have to do something about all the delusional, radical believers. That has to come from other non-delusional Muslims.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

ISIS now controls 4 major cities along the Libyan coast

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Breaking: Soldiers successfully repatriate troops guarding Turkish enclave in Syria surrounded by IS militants: PM


Turkey evacuates troops guarding tomb inside Syria: PM



Also, ISIS claims to have beheaded 21 Kurdish Peshmerga soldiers. The evil never stops

 

[Kutnupe14]

Of the groups opposing ISIS, in theatre, which ones are our "friends?" The Syrian Army? Nope. The Sadr Army? Nope. The Iranians? Nope. Al Qaeda? Nope. The guys that stormed the consulate in Benghazi (Libya)? Nope. The Jordanians (who were going to pull out of the coalition until they killed one of their pilots? Maybe. The Peshmerga? Probably. The Egyptians? Maybe.

So what exactly is the point of killing one enemy and replacing it, most likely, with another?

 

[Kutnupe14]

This may sound bad, but overthrowing dictators in the past 50 years seems to have made Americans less safe.

 

[jamil]

This may sound bad, but overthrowing dictators in the past 50 years seems to have made Americans less safe.

Bush was right before he was wrong. Nation building is foolish. We tore down dictatorships and tried to rebuild nations with Democracy. We totally ****ed that up. I think the culture in the M.E. is incapable of self rule. Sad thing is, leaving it be at this point results in more disaster. We're left with nothing but bad options. Getting rid of ISIS from Iraq and Libya will leave a void of power for the next group of terrorists. Maybe we just need to find a few more secular dictators like Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi to put back in charge.

 

[Hawkeye]

This may sound bad, but overthrowing dictators in the past 50 years seems to have made Americans less safe.

So, are you in favor of propping up dictators? We've done that, too. Pinochet, Samoza, Pahlevi, Peron, Marcos...

 

[Kutnupe14]

So, are you in favor of propping up dictators? We've done that, too. Pinochet, Samoza, Pahlevi, Peron, Marcos...

Propping up, no. Leaving them alone, yes. People tend to value their freedom a tad bit more, when they fight for themselves to attain it.

 

[hornadylnl]

Propping up, no. Leaving them alone, yes. People tend to value their freedom a tad bit more, when they fight for themselves to attain it.

Our government should treat families like they do foreign nations. No home is sovereign. They know better than you do. Their will be done in your household.

 

[dirtfarmerz]

There's a rather large group of Republicans who aren't all that worried about "the prophecy" just yet. What about this?:

1) You don't publicly call out your friends and insult them
2) If you do so , they are likely not your friends.
3) You don't refer to them as "chicken****" in the press. In diplomatic terms, that's the unprecedented equivalent of a nuclear bomb.
4) Why don't you do this? Hmmmm... maybe because your OTHER friends might just notice that your friendship isn't worth a whole sodding hell of a lot anymore.
5) "International Relations" is the business of one country screwing another. Always has been. One country screwing another OVER, though, has ALWAYS carried consequences. And we seem to be doing it with reckless abandon.

So let's all get "the prophecy" bug out of our collective keister - and look at things from a very pragmatic point of view, shall we?

If we can't treat our "friends" with decency and respect (even if don't agree with their point of view), then what does that say about us? What have we become? What does that say about how much our stated values have deteriorated?

Taking "the prophecy" COMPLETELY out of the equation, the actions of our President and State Department are completely inexcusable and thoroughly stupid - NO MATTER what one thinks of Israel or their position. When my kids were 5 years old, I'd have smacked their ass for behaving in the petulant and spoiled childish manner displayed by the "leaders" of our country.

I could give two craps about "the prophecy" right now. It's Obama's "temper tantrum Statesmanship" that's gonna get us killed.

I don't believe they are stupid. Their actions appear stupid to us, but they are achieving many of their goals. There are "wars and rumors of wars" (sorry for not taking prophesy out of the equation) so they have a summit and the DHS decides that right-wing sovereign citizen extremists are a domestic threat. They never let a crisis go to waste. "They" aren't doing much to control ISIS because they need a crisis in our country big enough to use as an excuse to pass laws to control the domestic threat. They have to convince the majority of us to think we need protection. Over a year ago the DHS put Evangelical Christians as #1 on their Terrorist Watch List; Al Queda was #6. The Obama organization knows there are radical extremists crossing our border and they don't stop it. They need a crisis to speed up their agenda. Obama defies the Congress, breaks laws, and doesn't obey the Constitution now so what will he do if there's a terrorist threat within the United States? He will come down hard on "their" version of the domestic threat. "They" will be able to do what they want and the majority of citizens will let them do it. They have been prepping for a long time. Stupid people don't meet, plan and slowly pass laws the way Obama's organization is doing. They have been using all of the government agencies. Military and government leaders are being replaced with like-minded people. They would have made even more progress if it wasn't for whistleblowers letting us know what was/is being done.

Reasonable people would have stopped the ISIS threat when it started, but Obama's organization won't even supply the people fighting the war. The situation just screams at us and we have not seen this much cruelty for a long time. There is a reason for delaying support. They are not stupid; Obama and his crew believe they are doing what is best for their cause, just like ISIS is doing. It looks awful and stupid to us, but Obama believes in what he is doing and ISIS believes in what they are doing. Obama isn't doing this alone, there are a lot of folks with the same agenda. It doesn't matter if we say these things because they keep all this data and they know who we are.

Prophesy isn't something that can be changed. Prophesy is a revelation of what is going to happen, not what might happen. You can hold your breath, jump up and down, and make mean faces, but you cannot stop what's coming...

 

[Hawkeye]

Propping up, no. Leaving them alone, yes. People tend to value their freedom a tad bit more, when they fight for themselves to attain it.

Not disagreeing with you. Sometimes is a choice of the lesser of two evils as oftentimes, at least in the "Cold War" era, the "liberation movements" were a front for the "evil commies" or at least so goes the perception...

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Police scramble to find teen girls before they join ISIS - CNN.com

 

[Kutnupe14]

Police scramble to find teen girls before they join ISIS - CNN.com

Apparently European kids are much richer than American ones. What 15 year old has money to afford a flight from England to Turkey?

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Spoke to my grandmother over the weekend... and at the end of the call, she told me to be careful at malls... because ISIS is going to bomb one because they're coming into the country.

1. I was surprised to hear her voice an opinion at all about ISIS. She's quite elderly, and has never spoke of them before.
2. I found it difficult to disagree with her assertion that they're coming into the country... I mean, it's not like we're enforcing our immigration laws, and we're just allowing thousands of Syrians to come over. I'd like to think our gov is on top of this, and would closely monitor these people to be sure no extremists slipped through... but I can't say I'm confident.

I think there will be more terrorist events here in America in the near future. Probably pretty small-scale... but even the Boston Marathon Bombing was a simple enough thing to execute, and would be difficult to prevent.

That, and domestic ISIS recruitment is happening:

Virginia woman charged in connection to ISIS recruitment - CNN.com

ISIS: Good!

 

[T.Lex]

Here's an interesting issue from France.
BBC News - France seizes passports of six 'Syria-bound' citizens

French authorities have for the first time confiscated the passports of six nationals who were allegedly planning to travel to Syria to join jihadists.

Now, the French criminal justice system is VERY different from our own. In certain cases, there is actually a judge "embedded" in the investigation. Think of it as a stronger corollary to going to a US judge for a search warrant. Except, the judge is actually collecting all the evidence and can direct the police where to go.

But this appears to be more administrative. The police simply taking the passports without arresting the individual and/or putting the individual on some sort of no-travel list.

Apparently, France is not alone in the ability to do this, in Europe:

In the UK, police can now seize the passports for up to 30 days from nationals trying to leave the country, and can temporarily prevent citizens suspected of involvement with Islamic State from re-entering Britain. The Home Secretary says she has removed passports from 25 suspected jihadists.
German law allows authorities to seize passports, but not personal identity cards that allow entry to EU countries and to Turkey - a gateway to Syria for jihadists. A new draft law would allow the removal of identity cards and their replacement with a document banning foreign travel.
In Sweden, the government is drafting a law that would allow the confiscation of passports from people known to have fought alongside jihadists in the Middle East.

I just don't see how this could happen in the US without an arrest warrant, which means probable cause to believe a crime has been committed or is being committed. But not "will be committed."

 

[ArcadiaGP]

New ISIS video shows Kurdish Peshmerga soldiers in cages in Iraq - CNN.com