A combat vets argument for concealed carry not open

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • Mongoose1.1

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jul 22, 2012
    51
    6
    Read some posts and an essay supporting open-carry. Insightful, but they missed some important details so I thought I'd throw my hat into the arena.

    A CONCEALED CARRY ARGUMENT :twocents:

    This is the real question I feel that should be addressed: How many of us are honestly trained for combat to the point that we would advertise we are ready for it? Most of us that carry are definitely not trained for it. Why risk escalation where things can go bad, fast? Combat shooting is a serious skill set radically different from range shooting. Carrying openly suggests to someone that you are ready for trouble and that someone looking for trouble will find it. To a criminal, you are also advertising that you are trouble. To bystanders and responding police, you are advertising that you MIGHT be trouble. Bystanders don't know the difference until you part ways.

    I'm very well-trained in close quarters combat shooting and in most (not all) situations as a citizen if faced with armed perpetrators, say robbing a store, I would not pull the gun unless there was no other choice. A few important reasons why:

    1) rule number four of combat shooting - know your target and what's behind it. Chances are people are behind the perp so you have to look for a shot or create one. The criminal might not have any such reservations. I have a high degree of confidence I'll hit what I'm aiming at. The criminal probably will not under that much stress. Collateral damage is common in urban gunbattles.

    2) money and material possessions, whether insured or not, are not worth the life of SOMEONE ELSE. Innocent people can get hurt. Bullets very often travel through barriers and can still wound if not kill. Why take the chance unless absolutely necessary? Better to get the plate # and description of a car or of the suspect for law enforcement.

    3) Taking a life is not something to be taken lightly. Now if it's between you/innocent person and a criminal shooter, it's two in the chest, one in the head of the shooter every day of the week and twice on Sunday. But make no mistake, there is a price to pay. You'll never be the same after something like that.

    4) If things go badly, and I think we can all agree they can, you might save the day, and still wind up sued or worse, charged with a crime if things aren't clean. The broader issue: threat assessment and the application of force. If you wear a gun for the world to see, you better be prepared to use it. But is it even justifiable? Unless it's life or death, is it really worth it?

    I'm not sure about where everybody lives, but people around here that open carry have a tendency to get questioned by police, sometimes with the cuffs on, until their identity is verified. This is a regional matter obviously. But why do they do this in a suburb? Because we're not in Tombstone or Dodge City we're in the suburbs. It has nothing to do with Second Amendment violations and open-carry laws. It's because in this day and age, guns carried openly in the hands of a stranger scares the bejezzuz out of most law-abiding citizens. That's the media's fault to some degree, but the reality is we have mass shootings happening all over the world. It has undeniably had a psychological effect on the populace.

    Even as a combat veteran who carries concealed, when I see someone carrying openly, my first thought is, why the hell are they carrying the gun? Should I feel at ease that a complete stranger is openly armed in public? And most importantly, this thought always crosses my mind: Is this person responsible enough with that gun not to get us all killed getting involved in something they might not be trained for, i.e. COMBAT.

    Some things to consider about open-carry: Do you really want to make an armed robber even more nervous when they see your weapon carried openly after barging into a store? They're unlikely to see it until they are in the place. Gauging or rather "gambling" on how a criminal is going to react is dangerous and it could be fatal. They come in and see your gun, you see them, maybe you instinctively reach for the gun, maybe even hesitate...there's more than a few things that can go wrong here. That kind of stress leads people to do things you would not always expect.
    Stats teach us nothing about deterrant because you can't track crimes that don't take place because of open-carry. While most criminals are unlikely to break into a house of a gun-owner, how many criminals really avoid actual crimes because of open-carry? No way to track that info realistically.

    If a perp runs into the store armed and sees your gun, you have now become priority number one. Is that safer for you and the others around you? The money the perp wants is insured. Unless he's shooting people, he most likely wants the money and to leave. Everybody else wants to survive. Consider whether it's worth the trouble that can potentially be caused. It could escalate the situation into a fatal encounter in what otherwise would have been survivable. Your decision to openly carry, or even use your gun is one that is made for every person in the area.

    I concede carrying concealed is not useful if the gun is not readily accessible. Mine can be reached and effectively used in seconds (Combat reflexive shooting). A lot of practice and training went into it. I respect everyone's opinion who wants to carry openly but I think it's selfish to just say, well the housewife with her four kids at the grocery store needs to get used to seeing guns on our hips. Carrying is a way of life and a tremendous responsibility. Gunfights are rarely ever clean, and somebody almost always gets hurt. Most rounds fired in combat, even by trained professionals, are not on target. That's an absolute fact. Mostly because people are almost always moving and because of stress. Moving and shooting is a skill well-beyond what even experienced range shooters are capable of. Especially if bystanders are involved.

    Personally, I think someone that wants to carry should do what the U.S. military teaches it's operators to do when in plain clothes: Carry concealed where you can access the gun rapidly if you ever needed to. Train harder and more effectively rather than trust your life and everyone else's to the presumption that a criminal will respond the way you want them to. :patriot:
     

    Titanium_Frost

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    35   0   0
    Feb 6, 2011
    7,636
    83
    Southwestern Indiana
    More ignorant ranting by someone who thinks he knows better than I do how it is I should carry. Yawn.

    This is not the military this is civilian life and things work differently here: Free Will for one.

    I have a question for you, why does it matter how OTHER people carry?
     

    Valvestate

    Expert
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 11, 2012
    1,041
    38
    NWI
    :popcorn:

    OP, would you say that you might be afraid you'll have a bad day similar to a bad one at the range out in public? (Like first time shooters, or grannys, whatever, that shoot the ceiling above their lane and wave their guns around like babies). Don't mind TF, the subject's been beat to death loooong before I got here.
     
    Last edited:

    1911

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Dec 30, 2011
    79
    8
    carmel
    Right now, I'm only going to argue your number 2 point. Yes, my money and possessions are nowhere the equivalent of someone's life, but if it comes to a point that I have to use my weapon to dissuade or stop an attacker, they made that choice for themselves. Btw I carry openly and concealed as I see fit, usually due to weather, but also just because our state allows me to do so without repercussion.
     

    Hoosierdood

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    8   0   0
    Nov 2, 2010
    5,476
    149
    North of you
    The main problem I see is that you erroneously equate "combat" to "self defense". The two are not the same and cannot accurately be compared.

    And as TF said, why does someone else care how I choose to carry?
     

    ATM

    will argue for sammiches.
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    30   0   0
    Jul 29, 2008
    21,019
    83
    Crawfordsville
    I have no problem with those who prefer to carry concealed and support their choice, so I'll just respond to a few of these points for the sake of discussion.

    ...How many of us are honestly trained for combat to the point that we would advertise we are ready for it?

    I don't view carrying openly as an open invitation to engage me in combat, but I'm not ashamed or afraid for the public to know that I carry.

    Most of us that carry are definitely not trained for it.


    Most who have fire extinguishers are definitely not trained firefighters, either, but why hide the fact that you have the means and possibly the determination to fight fires?

    Why risk escalation where things can go bad, fast?

    Because I believe that knowing I am prepared to deal with threats would deter far more of those threats than it would encourage. It's risk management.


    ...Carrying openly suggests to someone that you are ready for trouble and that someone looking for trouble will find it. To a criminal, you are also advertising that you are trouble. To bystanders and responding police, you are advertising that you MIGHT be trouble. Bystanders don't know the difference until you part ways.

    Good. The criminals know I am ready for trouble so they will likely avoid selecting me as their intended victim. Most want an easy victim who is not prepared - they will be easier to subdue and likely much more compliant.

    As for bystanders and police, as long as they mean me no harm, why should I be concerned with what they're thinking about me?

    ...robbing a store...

    The overused store robbery scenario is clearly the favorite hypothetical of the concealed only crowd, not because of the likelihood of finding yourself in this situation, but because it is one of the few scenarios from which they know they will be able to draw the "right" conclusions (which have generally already been made) and justify a preexisting preference.


    1 ...Chances are people are behind the perp so you have to look for a shot or create one...

    Chances are you will be alone, at home or walking through a parking garage with a loved one when you need to deploy self defense. Even if you're only talking about being a bystander during a store robbery, these reasons have little to do with carry method.

    If you wear a gun for the world to see, you better be prepared to use it.
    But is it even justifiable? Unless it's life or death, is it really worth it?

    Of course, but everyone should be ready to use the tools they carry, even if they are hidden from view. Justification is decided later in hindsight... if you survive.


    I'm not sure about where everybody lives, but people around here that open carry have a tendency to get questioned by police, sometimes with the cuffs on, until their identity is verified.

    That sounds like a problem with your local police. What area?

    ...why do they do this in a suburb? Because we're not in Tombstone or Dodge City we're in the suburbs.

    Do what? Carry? Crimes happen in suburbs. You carry there, right?
    All they're doing differently than you (not doing, actually) is not covering it up to hide it from view.

    ...in this day and age, guns carried openly in the hands of a stranger scares the bejezzuz out of most law-abiding citizens.

    An openly holstered handgun doesn't scare most people. They may find it odd, but very few are scared.

    That's the media's fault to some degree, but the reality is we have mass shootings happening all over the world. It has undeniably had a psychological effect on the populace.

    So has this recent trend of most people wanting to conceal their guns. You're helping to make the sight of a law abiding armed citizen seem odd.


    Even as a combat veteran who carries concealed, when I see someone carrying openly, my first thought is, why the hell are they carrying the gun? Should I feel at ease that a complete stranger is openly armed in public?

    Wow.

    First:Why do you carry? Shouldn't that be a good enough reason for someone else to carry as well?

    Second: This is America, we don't need a reason to be armed.

    Your whole issue seems to be that they don't go to the trouble of hiding it from you, almost as if they should.


    ...Do you really want to make an armed robber even more nervous when they see your weapon carried openly after barging into a store? They're unlikely to see it until they are in the place.

    The barging in store robbery bystander scenario... again... does this happen a lot in the suburbs? ;)

    ...how many criminals really avoid actual crimes because of open-carry? No way to track that info realistically.

    Most, when asked, admit to avoiding armed citizens.
    Something which cannot be easily tracked with stats may still very well be true and effective, simply difficult to quantify.

    ...If a perp runs into the store armed and sees your gun, you have now become priority number one.

    I'm going to stop shopping in the suburbs - this must be the only crime that happens there. :D

    ...I respect everyone's opinion who wants to carry openly but I think it's selfish to just say, well the housewife with her four kids at the grocery store needs to get used to seeing guns on our hips.

    Why do you think that's selfish? Does she have some right to not see a gun on my hip upon which I am somehow infringing? I don't get it. :scratch:

    ...Train harder and more effectively rather than trust your life and everyone else's to the presumption that a criminal will respond the way you want them to. :patriot:

    Careful with assumptions and false dichotomies here.

    What if I already train hard and effectively yet still prefer open carry and still consider the benefits of doing so to be greater for me than those I might gain by concealing?

    What if I'm not trusting anyone's life to any presumption of criminal response but would still like to be avoided by any criminals who don't want anything to do with an armed citizen?

    What if my way is best and most other people are just wrong? :eek:

    Just kidding. :):
     

    grizman

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Apr 24, 2010
    571
    16
    Home
    The main problem I see is that you erroneously equate "combat" to "self defense". The two are not the same and cannot accurately be compared.


    Why then are most of the trainers in the top self defense schools ex military?
    The problem with your statement is you assume every combat vet has only basic infantry training and exp.

    Some of us had way more training/exp in CQB, hostage rescue, structure clearing, VIP protection, person of interest capture, etc etc than 99% of the LEO's, including SWAT/HRT operators, performing these same duties all over the country today. Look at the background of the majority of the folks who work in SWAT, FBI's HRT unit, Secret Service especially those that train these people and will find the vast majority are ex military/ combat vets.

    FYI any SD situation where a shot or shots are fired is a combat situation.
     
    Last edited:

    Kedric

    Master
    Rating - 80%
    4   1   0
    Sep 12, 2011
    2,599
    38
    Grant Co.
    ATM said it much more eloquently than I could have at this time in the morning, but I agree 100% with him, and this is coming from another combat vet.
     

    Hoosierdood

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    8   0   0
    Nov 2, 2010
    5,476
    149
    North of you
    Why then are most of the trainers in the top self defense schools ex military?
    The problem with this statement is you assume every combat vet has only basic infantry training and exp.

    Some of us had way more training/exp in CQB, hostage rescue, structure clearing, VIP protection, person of interest capture, etc etc than 99% of the LEO's, including SWAT/HRT operators, performing these same duties all over the country today. Look at the background of the majority of the folks who work in SWAT, FBI's HRT unit, Secret Service especially those that train these people and will find the vast majority are ex military/ combat vets.

    FYI any SD situation where a shot or shots are fired is a combat situation.

    You misunderstand my point. Statistically speaking, how often is an average citizen involved in hostage rescue? How about VIP protection or person of interest capture?

    The military trains for those encounters that they will most likely be involved in. Why should I train for those same encounters? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that training is not important. It is important. However, there are some even here on INGO who would tout their own training when that specific training may never be applicable to a real world, ordinary citizen type of application.

    I am not going to try to capture a criminal. That is a job for the police - they train for it. I don't anticipate ever getting into a gunfight. I would much rather avoid one. I do train, but I concentrate my training on the most probable situations that may confront me.
     

    Denny347

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    21   0   0
    Mar 18, 2008
    13,561
    149
    Napganistan
    Why then are most of the trainers in the top self defense schools ex military?
    The problem with your statement is you assume every combat vet has only basic infantry training and exp.

    Some of us had way more training/exp in CQB, hostage rescue, structure clearing, VIP protection, person of interest capture, etc etc than 99% of the LEO's, including SWAT/HRT operators, performing these same duties all over the country today. Look at the background of the majority of the folks who work in SWAT, FBI's HRT unit, Secret Service especially those that train these people and will find the vast majority are ex military/ combat vets.

    FYI any SD situation where a shot or shots are fired is a combat situation.
    ^^^^^
    When a shot is fired at you in anger it matters little who fired it. Your body/mind reacts the same unless you train for a different response.
     
    Last edited:

    Valvestate

    Expert
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 11, 2012
    1,041
    38
    NWI
    Everyone should just join the military and get the combat experience.

    I think Indiana technically sees you as having entered combat if fire/return fire. Teccchnicallyyyy.
     

    Denny347

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    21   0   0
    Mar 18, 2008
    13,561
    149
    Napganistan
    Everyone should just join the military and get the combat experience.

    I think Indiana technically sees you as having entered combat if fire/return fire. Teccchnicallyyyy.

    Military does not automatically = combat. If you don't train for it, it is unlikely that you will overcome the natural urge to be a curl up into the fetal position and poop your pant's when bullets start flying at you.
     

    grizman

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Apr 24, 2010
    571
    16
    Home
    You misunderstand my point. Statistically speaking, how often is an average citizen involved in hostage rescue? How about VIP protection or person of interest capture?

    The military trains for those encounters that they will most likely be involved in. Why should I train for those same encounters? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that training is not important. It is important. However, there are some even here on INGO who would tout their own training when that specific training may never be applicable to a real world, ordinary citizen type of application.

    I am not going to try to capture a criminal. That is a job for the police - they train for it. I don't anticipate ever getting into a gunfight. I would much rather avoid one. I do train, but I concentrate my training on the most probable situations that may confront me.

    All proper training is beneficial! The more you know, the more exp you have, and the more you train, you can more effectively act in any high stress situation with less chance of mistakes and injury to bystanders.



    Everyone should just join the military and get the combat experience.

    If everyone did, in a MOS that required such skills, they could handle themselves better instead of assuming they are GTG!
     

    Valvestate

    Expert
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 11, 2012
    1,041
    38
    NWI
    Military does not automatically = combat. If you don't train for it, it is unlikely that you will overcome the natural urge to be a curl up into the fetal position and poop your pant's when bullets start flying at you.

    Denny, if bullets start flying at me, you'll be the first thing I think of when I poop my pants.

    But I know what you mean. But that is kind of the point OP was making, bullets may fly and OCer may :poop: pants. He should have said any-carrier may :poop: pants, though.
     

    Fixer

    Expert
    Rating - 96.4%
    26   1   1
    Nov 22, 2009
    1,157
    63
    Fort Wayne Area
    I do agree that if you open carry you should be ready to use it. Actually if you carry at all you should be ready to use your weopon effectively. I have trained at the range and also started shooting USPSA. If you can draw and fire and hit your target in a stress environment like that you have a better than average chance of things going your way. I know a lot of law enforcement that are not as well trained in defensive shooting as I am, yet they still give them a gun and send them out OC'ing.

    Until there are some actual facts as to not open carry, I will continue to do so. I will also urge anyone who carries Open or Consealed, to shoot and train as often as possible.
     

    88GT

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 29, 2010
    16,643
    83
    Familyfriendlyville
    Disclaimer: have not read any responses. I didn't even read all of the OP. Just the question bolded.

    So OP, here's a question for you: of the hundreds of thousands* of people who use a firearm for self defense every year were trained for combat?




    *working off of FBI stats; the number isn't really that important
     
    Top Bottom