7th Circuit Upholds Warrantless Entry to Seize Gun

[BuckCreek]

We need some new judges

Not just new ones, but ones that respect the Constitution and our rights.

 

[jbombelli]

Attention everyone: I am NOT going to kill myself.

I know that probably disappoints a couple of you...

 

[KG1]

I am going to kill myself with brussel sprouts!

 

[Expat]

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. - See more at: Fourth Amendment - U.S. Constitution - FindLaw

Not sure I see their reasoning here in this...

 

[2A_Tom]

They left out the part in the article, where they confiscated all of her knives, chainsaws, circular saws, electric cords, ropes, string, any type of barbiturates, narcotics, household cleaning supplies, and then put her in a padded room in a straight jacket. Even then if she wanted she could figure out a way to kill urself.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

They left out the part in the article, where they confiscated all of her knives, chainsaws, circular saws, electric cords, ropes, string, any type of barbiturates, narcotics, household cleaning supplies, and then put her in a padded room in a straight jacket. Even then if she wanted she could figure out a way to kill urself.

Yup. You don't save them all. I had a woman who was convinced the devil was inside of her commit suicide 3 days after an intervention. To this day I consider it one of the greatest failures I've had in law enforcement, even though I still can't think of anything I could have done differently. However, I've got a lot of success stories, too. Suicidal tendencies aren't steady, they are like waves, and only at the peak will they kill themselves. Keep them safe during the peak, and they may return to a normal life.

You know, its funny after Newtown the gun owner community was full of "we need better mental health laws, not new gun control laws." Thirty minutes later, that's forgotten, and we shouldn't be intervening with mentally ill people with firearms who are self reporting they are suicidal.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Yup. You don't save them all. I had a woman who was convinced the devil was inside of her commit suicide 3 days after an intervention. To this day I consider it one of the greatest failures I've had in law enforcement, even though I still can't think of anything I could have done differently. However, I've got a lot of success stories, too. Suicidal tendencies aren't steady, they are like waves, and only at the peak will they kill themselves. Keep them safe during the peak, and they may return to a normal life.

You know, its funny after Newtown the gun owner community was full of "we need better mental health laws, not new gun control laws." Thirty minutes later, that's forgotten, and we shouldn't be intervening with mentally ill people with firearms who are self reporting they are suicidal.

While I can understand your position, it leaves open some problem issues. What happens when the doctor decides that just because I am not so happy as to be farting rainbows then I am a danger to myself? What if the doc just has a problem with gun ownership and somehow or other becomes aware I have them (slip of the tongue or someone else who knows me having loose lips)? What if the police cultivate doctors with the same lack of moral character as any other CI who throws innocent people under the bus in exchange for whatever the bargain of the day may be?

 

[Bill of Rights]

Yup. You don't save them all. I had a woman who was convinced the devil was inside of her commit suicide 3 days after an intervention. To this day I consider it one of the greatest failures I've had in law enforcement, even though I still can't think of anything I could have done differently. However, I've got a lot of success stories, too. Suicidal tendencies aren't steady, they are like waves, and only at the peak will they kill themselves. Keep them safe during the peak, and they may return to a normal life.

You know, its funny after Newtown the gun owner community was full of "we need better mental health laws, not new gun control laws." Thirty minutes later, that's forgotten, and we shouldn't be intervening with mentally ill people with firearms who are self reporting they are suicidal.

If all they are is suicidal, meaning, for the sake of clarity, that they want to do enough harm to themselves and themselves alone to end their lives, I would agree that we should not be intervening. That is their own choice, as they own their own lives. (religiously, the thinking is that they will have to answer for their choice as that life belongs to their Creator, but that's a matter for the churches, not the three branches of government.)
OTOH, if someone wants to do harm to others in the process, that is, they want to kill and if they die in the process so be it, that's a good place to focus attention. That is protecting and serving society as a whole.

Someone who self-reports suicidal ideation is requesting help. That doesn't mean they're requesting shock and awe, overwhelming force, come-in-and-shoot-my-dog intervention, it means they need someone to come talk to them and, as you said, get them past the peak.

It has long been quoted here and elsewhere that people can be convinced to do something or they can be forced to do something that it's not their idea to do. The question I have to ask is, "If you didn't have "authority" and "power", and superior firepower and numbers, what would you do regarding this person who threatens himself?" Using force is certainly faster and easier, but at what cost? I suggest that the cost is measured in terms of loss(es) of liberty for society as a whole, every time the practice of using force against someone by virtue of "authority" is normalized.



Blessings,
Bill

 

[cce1302]

You know, its funny after Newtown the gun owner community was full of "we need better mental health laws, not new gun control laws." Thirty minutes later, that's forgotten, and we shouldn't be intervening with mentally ill people with firearms who are self reporting they are suicidal.

Politician's syllogism: We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this.

I hardly think that any gun owner meant by "we need better mental health laws" that "we need police to intervene every time a doctor tells them a patient is suicidal."


Oh, and for the record, I don't think we need better mental health laws. I think we need more individual responsibility, but that won't be a result of passing more laws in any area.

 

[Destro]

if someone is willing to harm themselves, is it not illogical they might have a propensity to harm others?

 

[KLB]

if someone is willing to harm themselves, is it not illogical they might have a propensity to harm others?

I think that most do not. The suicides I hear of that harm others are those that are out to harm others to begin with. They kill themselves after they have harmed their target.

 

[cce1302]

if someone is willing to harm themselves, is it not illogical they might have a propensity to harm others?

How many people commit suicide each year?

How many people commit a murder-suicide each year?

 

[KLB]

I found this.
Murder-suicides are in a class by themselves

Studies estimate 1,000 to 1,500 murder-suicides occur per year in the United States — equating to less than 3 percent of the 54,623 suicides and homicides that took place nationally in 2010.

Sabrina Walsh, director of the Kentucky Violent Death Reporting System, pointed to a study she co-wrote in 2005 which found that, between 1998 and 2000, just 3.2 percent of suicides in Kentucky were preceded by a homicide.

 

[cce1302]

I found this.
Murder-suicides are in a class by themselves

So did I. That's why I asked Destro, not you.

 

[SteveM4A1]

If all they are is suicidal, meaning, for the sake of clarity, that they want to do enough harm to themselves and themselves alone to end their lives, I would agree that we should not be intervening. That is their own choice, as they own their own lives. (religiously, the thinking is that they will have to answer for their choice as that life belongs to their Creator, but that's a matter for the churches, not the three branches of government.)
OTOH, if someone wants to do harm to others in the process, that is, they want to kill and if they die in the process so be it, that's a good place to focus attention. That is protecting and serving society as a whole.

Someone who self-reports suicidal ideation is requesting help. That doesn't mean they're requesting shock and awe, overwhelming force, come-in-and-shoot-my-dog intervention, it means they need someone to come talk to them and, as you said, get them past the peak.

It has long been quoted here and elsewhere that people can be convinced to do something or they can be forced to do something that it's not their idea to do. The question I have to ask is, "If you didn't have "authority" and "power", and superior firepower and numbers, what would you do regarding this person who threatens himself?" Using force is certainly faster and easier, but at what cost? I suggest that the cost is measured in terms of loss(es) of liberty for society as a whole, every time the practice of using force against someone by virtue of "authority" is normalized.



Blessings,
Bill

Exactly. Couldn't have said it better.

if someone is willing to harm themselves, is it not illogical they might have a propensity to harm others?

There is so much fail in this.

 

[Destro]

So did I. That's why I asked Destro, not you.

leave your facts out of this

 

[BehindBlueI's]

While I can understand your position, it leaves open some problem issues. What happens when the doctor decides that just because I am not so happy as to be farting rainbows then I am a danger to myself? What if the doc just has a problem with gun ownership and somehow or other becomes aware I have them (slip of the tongue or someone else who knows me having loose lips)? What if the police cultivate doctors with the same lack of moral character as any other CI who throws innocent people under the bus in exchange for whatever the bargain of the day may be?

What happens when we worry so much about slippery slope arguments that we ignore real problems?

What if we invent a bunch of hypotheticals that didn't happen to distract from what the lawsuit says actually happened, then use that fictional account to rail against the real account?

What if liquor store owners band together and start lying, saying you robbed them, because they have a problem with you as a gun owner? One could follow you around so he knows when you don't have an alibi, another could call in a robbery, have someone with Hollywood grade makeup to look like you do the robbery, and then call the police. Do this two or three times, then call in an anonymous tip that its you, pick you out of a photo array, and off you go to prison for multiple robberies. What then?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I found this.
Murder-suicides are in a class by themselves

Gosh, only 3% killed somebody else? Well, no reason to intervene then. 1,000 to 1,500 murders done by suicidal people is simply par for the course and we should just accept it.

Oh, by the way, how many INGO members used their gun to protect themselves or others from an assault this week? Anywhere near 3%? Probably more like 0%? Yet we rail against a business that won't let us carry because we may need to protect ourselves. In that situation we'll say its not the odds, its the stakes. But mentally ill people with a gun? Ah, who cares about 1,000 to 1,500 citizens killed, we shouldn't bother to intervene because the odds are just so low.

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

I don't mean to sound cold, but in the story provided the person only said they should go home and blow their brains out. They didn't. Lots of people say that - almost none do it. She made the mistake of saying it in front of her doctor.

Anyone here ever - in frustration - make such a statement? Ever in a million years plan to really follow up on your own hyperbole?

 

[cce1302]

Why are we giving doctors the power to give police the power to enter a residence without constitutional authority?