4 yo boy in Merrillville shoots himself and dies.

[chef larry]

And in our society, too many won't even take their children to a funeral because they don't want them to see a corpse, they are too young and tender. I say when a loved one dies, the child needs to see the finality of it all so they can understand death or at least begin to.

Even children need to have closure.

 

[Dirtebiker]

Their child, entirely innocent, died because of the parents stupidity, and for no other reason.

"Feel sorry"? Absolutely not. But for the parents own stupidity, that young lad would be alive. No one should "feel sorry" for a parent that willfully and stupidly causes their child's death. Would one "feel sorry" for someone who took a loaded handgun, pointed it at their child, and pulled the trigger? Their wanton negligence did, in essence, exactly that.

Any "more punishment"? No, it should be ADDITIONAL punishment as a result of their complete failure to act responsibly. They should derive NO 'benefit' from such wanton and reckless conduct.

What should they be convicted OF? Reckless homicide, manslaughter, child abuse, child negligence, misuse of a firearm? There's likely multiple charges they COULD be charged with, and should be charged with every crime applicable.

What good would prison do? It would get these people away from others they might harm, or cause to harm, including whatever children are still in their care, who should be immediately and permanently removed from the custody of these parents.

Does that sound 'harsh'? It's a helluva lot less 'harsh' than what happened to Cash Irby, Jr. due to the stupidity of his parents.

(From another Poster) - What if the parents read this? Well, at least they GET to do so. Cash, Jr. does NOT.

Homicide? Manslaughter? Maybe you should read the definitions.
Child abuse? Really?
Child negligence? Is that a charge?
Misuse of a firearm? Only thing I could find was an I.C. about NOT being responsible for misuse by someone who takes the persons gun illegally.

I'm deffinitly not knowledgable about all the laws, but you certainly haven't shown me anything they could be legitimately charged with.
Like I said before, I feel at least as sorry for you as I do those parents! I hope you never have to endure losing someone (ecspecially a child) like that.
Were the parents negligent? Maybe, we don't know. But I do know that there is NOTHING the justice system could do that would punish them more than they will punish themselves!
Are you seriously equating what happened to a parent shooting their child?
What "benefit" are you talking about them receiving?
And now you would take any other kids away from them? And that would benefit those kids how?
I truly hope you can lose some of your bitterness!
Peace!

 

[billt]

This keeps on happening, just like kids drowning in pools out here. Parents just never learn.

 

[Hexlobular]

Wholly and entirely disagree. I was taught about the lethality of firearms at that age, and a couple years later, at age 6 being taught to shoot (.22 lr).

While I agree with securing the guns, in my parents home they were kept in a glass door display cabinet, ammo on the shelf above. We simply didn't mess with 'em unless Dad authorized it.

If this young lad was old enough to find that firearm, he was old enough to be taught gun safety. Though, I still agree securing them is the proper duty of the parents.

Sorry, but the tragic death of this little guy was completely unnecessary, entirely preventable, and the guilt wholly and fully rests with the parents. The parents should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Maybe 20 years in a prison would help 'clarify' things for them.

My heart goes out to the 4 year old boy. I have zero sympathy or empathy for his parents. None.

Cash Irby, Jr., 4 years old. Killed by stupid parents.

Unnecessary and entirely preventable, yes. Criminal? I'm not so sure. Irresponsible? Absolutely. Painful regardless...

 

[churchmouse]

When I was a little kid, my dad (now retired LEO) would come home and the first thing he would do was unload his revolver. He explained to me the dangers of firearms, and he'd religiously line up the six bullets on his dresser with his keys and change to verify there were six. Even then, he would still put it up. As a young boy, seeing him do that every day also made it very clear to me how serious a firearm was, and that I had no business touching it without his permission/presence.

We still talk about that to this day, as I now have 3 daughters and a granddaughter of my own. Parents need to teach earlier, not later.

Parents need to be that.....Parents.

Teach period. Start early with everything not just guns. Honesty, work ethic, moral behavior. The time and a place rule. There is a time and a place for everything. I could go on but you get the drift I am sure.

 

[LionWeight]

Who said teaching them was enough?

I agree if he was old enough to climb up to get it he was old enough to have been taught not to touch it. My 5 year old knows not to touch my guns and he has known for some time.

This was posted above my response. In my opinion teaching them is only half what should be done. Locked up or on your hip is not the same as "out of reach".

 

[Hexlobular]

Parents need to be that.....Parents.

Teach period. Start early with everything not just guns. Honesty, work ethic, moral behavior. The time and a place rule. There is a time and a place for everything. I could go on but you get the drift I am sure.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Hexlobular]

I agree if he was old enough to climb up to get it he was old enough to have been taught not to touch it. My 5 year old knows not to touch my guns and he has known for some time.

This was posted above my response. In my opinion teaching them is only half what should be done. Locked up or on your hip is not the same as "out of reach".

Agreed. I've made my fair share of mistakes with my own kids; anyone with kids has probably gone through the same thing. Teaching is imperative, and reinforcement is required. Consistency is key.

 

[Snapdragon]

Parents need to be that.....Parents.

Teach period. Start early with everything not just guns. Honesty, work ethic, moral behavior. The time and a place rule. There is a time and a place for everything. I could go on but you get the drift I am sure.

I get the drift, but a lot of people don't. Too many people think that raising a child = feed it, clothe it, house it, kick it out when it's 18.

 

[jwhitaker45]

Until recently I wasn't able to afford a decent safe for my firearms, but they were still locked in their cases in my bed side table. There is no excuse, the guns come in cases with holes for locks.

 

[Hexlobular]

I get the drift, but a lot of people don't. Too many people think that raising a child = feed it, clothe it, house it, kick it out when it's 18.

This will always be an issue. Puny humans. Most aren't proactive; only reactive. There's no problem until it affects them directly, and they're too closed-minded to see the big picture...

 

[billt]

When I was a kid my parents "childproofed" me. Today, everything a kid can touch or pick up, from a prescription bottle, to a cigarette lighter, to a power tool, has to be "childproofed". Today everything, and I mean everything, has to be made in order to lessen the responsibility of parents. I picked up my dads Zippo lighter once and started playing with it. I did it once. After I couldn't sit down for 5 hours afterward, I never thought about doing it again.

Today, these same toddlers who can't figure out how to, "flick a Bic", are now telling teachers to go "F" themselves 5 years later. We sure are making progress in the parenting department, aren't we?

 

[churchmouse]

When I was a kid my parents "childproofed" me. Today, everything a kid can touch or pick up, from a prescription bottle, to a cigarette lighter, to a power tool, has to be "childproofed". Today everything, and I mean everything, has to be made in order to lessen the responsibility of parents. I picked up my dads Zippo lighter once and started playing with it. I did it once. After I couldn't sit down for 5 hours afterward, I never thought about doing it again.

Today, these same toddlers who can't figure out how to, "flick a Bic", are now telling teachers to go "F" themselves 5 years later. We sure are making progress in the parenting department, aren't we?

These wayward kids were also a pain in my A$$ as a parent. My kids were going to school with a butt load of no responsibility kids. No chores, jobs, nothing. That had a negative effect on my efforts as a parent.
Oh, my kids went to a private school K through 12.

 

[dmarsh8]

I am saddened by this latest-reported negligence. Regardless of the cause, there are parents with a child to bury, siblings who won't understand why they need to learn about death so young, and lots of people who will demonize a tool or even the parents needlessly. This was preventable, and the only greater purpose I can see to an incident like this is that we are reminded just how deadly f***ing serious we need to remember what we do is.


I read on Cornered Cat years ago the process that the Jacksons undertook to protect their children. When her five sons were little, the guns were kept in a big cedar chest with stuff on top and a heavy lid. The kids were protected by their own physical weakness, good fortune, and the grace of God. As they began to get older, she and her husband began teaching the Eddie Eagle rules, slightly modified: Stop, don't touch, leave the area, tell an adult. Above all of those was don't touch, but there was a corollary to that:

What do you do if you really, REALLY want to touch it? You come ask me, and I'll drop everything and let you do that safely! (I'm paraphrasing her site from memory)

Kids will know where everything is in the house; no way around that. They also will get into everything possible, and no way around that either. They are curious and have to satisfy that curiosity. As parents, WE are responsible for giving them a safe outlet for that curiosity. How do we do it? We make sure they can safely handle a firearm, with our direct supervision, pointed only in a safe direction. We let them see everything about that gun... where the rounds (snap caps work) go, how the empty mag feeds in, how the slide strips a round and chambers it, and we let them manipulate the controls, all the while pointed in a safe direction, because, let's face it, pointing an empty gun at a bare brick wall gets boring fast.

Put in other, more familiar terms, we all have knives in our homes, and pretty dang sharp knives at that. Those of us with older kids know that there comes a point that they get taught how to cook, and some time after that, they have access to the sharpest knives you have, with which they could do some serious damage. We don't start them out there, though! We start them on butter knives... rounded tips, not even an edge to cut bread, let alone skin. They learn how to manipulate that correctly, while watching you use the table knives (rounded tip, but with a cutting edge) to cut their food for them. Eventually, they learn to do that for themselves, under your watchful eye, even though they'd REALLY have to work at it to hurt themselves with those kinds of knives. They still have to watch you use the steak knives and sharper for a while, but you do get to a point where they get to cut their own meat with your hand on the knife, then just your eyes on them, and eventually, they earn your trust and can cut their own meat without supervision. Finally, they get into the kitchen and cook a meal after a few more steps in the process. You might not yet trust them with a lawnmower or chainsaw, but they're well on the way.

The same process can be used with guns and ammo. It's a belt-and-suspenders approach, as Mrs. Jackson puts it, kid-proofing the guns, but also gun-proofing the kids.

The First Lesson | Cornered Cat

and

Disarming Kids? Curiosity | Cornered Cat

Mrs. Jackson, I know that you are a member here, though I don't know how often you read us. I would again like to thank you for a wonderfully instructive site and an insight into methods to do things that I might not have considered. You are an asset to the firearms community, and I am grateful for the help and instruction you give by example and by text.

Blessings,
Bill

Good links! I'll be passing those along.

 

[88GT]

Parenting is more than spreading your legs twice. It just seems that no one is qualified for the role anymore. We are creating a society that literally can't continue to exist.

Way too generalized. It's not the parenting, it's the expectations about how we live our lives.

Having a four year old myself, it deeply saddens me to hear this story. With that being said, the small investment for a gun safe is truly priceless when it comes to the safety of children. Anyone who thinks there kids won't find their guns no matter where they stash them, are fooling themselves.

My kids never had to "find" them because they weren't hidden. But my kids never tried to touch them without permission either.

You're half right. You can't teach a 3-4 year old the consequences of handling a gun. Their brains can't process that. Guns need to be locked up, end of story.

You don't need to teach them the consequence. Just the expected behavior and the parental-implemented consequence of disobedience. Of all the deadly products in the house, firearms are vilified on a level all their own.

Sorry but I don't agree that "teaching them" is enough. We're talking about a 4 year old. At that age you can "teach" them not to touch it all you want to. It isn't going to matter if they want to "see" it and "touch" it. While there is no hard and fast rule on how old a child can be to be trusted with the knowledge of a firearm, I just don't buy it that 4 years old was old enough. My biggest fear in life is that I will have to bury one of my children. I think I can face anything face to face. This isn't one of them. The absolute worst day of my life so far (and I'm in my mid 50's) has been the day a close friend had to bury his 2 week old baby. This happened 31 years ago. I can't even think about that day today without choking up about it. When my grandkids come over, my guns are locked in the safe. We take 2 of them shooting. That's with our presence and guidance. Lock your damn guns up or keep them on your person. May God be with them and that little boy. They will NEVER get over this. They may get beyond it, but never over it.

I've got two boys--5 and 8--that never touched a firearm without permission. If they want to "see" it and "touch" it, they only have to ask. I'd bet money every child who dies from trying to get Dad's gun didn't have a standing "If you want to see it or touch it, ask me and we'll do it" order in the home.

I ask this every time a thread like this comes up as well: considering that locks are a relatively recent phenomenon, someone explain to me how children weren't dying left and right before parents could slack off on the parenting and rely a little too much on the locks?

It's a choice between child-proofing your firearms or firearm-proofing your children.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Good links! I'll be passing those along.

Pass along her whole site. Full of good stuff.

Way too generalized. It's not the parenting, it's the expectations about how we live our lives.




My kids never had to "find" them because they weren't hidden. But my kids never tried to touch them without permission either.


You don't need to teach them the consequence. Just the expected behavior and the parental-implemented consequence of disobedience. Of all the deadly products in the house, firearms are vilified on a level all their own.


I've got two boys--5 and 8--that never touched a firearm without permission. If they want to "see" it and "touch" it, they only have to ask. I'd bet money every child who dies from trying to get Dad's gun didn't have a standing "If you want to see it or touch it, ask me and we'll do it" order in the home.

I ask this every time a thread like this comes up as well: considering that locks are a relatively recent phenomenon, someone explain to me how children weren't dying left and right before parents could slack off on the parenting and rely a little too much on the locks?

It's a choice between child-proofing your firearms or firearm-proofing your children.

...or both. Ronald Reagan has been credited with the phrase "Trust, but verify." Teach, teach, and teach some more. As someone put it a few posts up, consistency is key. I also recall someone saying that he occasionally tested his kids, to the point that he'd hear that exasperated voice young kids, especially but not exclusively girls master so well, hollering up the stairs to him,

"Daaaad, would you come get your gun off my bed, please?!"

As I recall, the gun was intentionally emptied prior to this test, but they always passed it.

And for the record, reading of your bet, I would also bet money that you're correct.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[88GT]

...or both.

Regrettably, i believe that the "lock 'em up" crowd is less likely to do both.

 

[Gluemanz28]

Pass along her whole site. Full of good stuff.



...or both. Ronald Reagan has been credited with the phrase "Trust, but verify." Teach, teach, and teach some more. As someone put it a few posts up, consistency is key. I also recall someone saying that he occasionally tested his kids, to the point that he'd hear that exasperated voice young kids, especially but not exclusively girls master so well, hollering up the stairs to him,

"Daaaad, would you come get your gun off my bed, please?!"

As I recall, the gun was intentionally emptied prior to this test, but they always passed it.

And for the record, reading of your bet, I would also bet money that you're correct.

Blessings,
Bill

INGO is on a roll of good post in the last several hours. Way to go INGO

Consistency on training is key. I test my grandkids with an unloaded gun periodically in various places. I stayed in a hotel with them last night. I put my EDC weapon under the mattress on my side of the bed. We were in a different environment than what they were used to so I changed up how I protected them from danger. They told me this morning as we were gathering up our belongings to checkout "Poppy did you get your gun from under the bed?"

I thought they were already asleep when I put in under the mattress. Those boys are like a sponge soaking up all they can. We just have to make sure the stuff going into the sponge is good stuff and not junk that will clog up the pores.

My Son-in-law asked the four year old why did something that he just told him not to do just minutes before.
Noah replied "Daddy I try to listen but sometimes I hear music in my head"
Son-in-law asks "What does the music sound like"
Noah replies "Cock-a-doodle-doo"

How are you supposed to reply to that?

My SIL just said "Well son just try to do your best" while doing his best to not bust out laughing. That boy cracks me up

 

[ShootnCut]

When I was a kid my parents "childproofed" me. Today, everything a kid can touch or pick up, from a prescription bottle, to a cigarette lighter, to a power tool, has to be "childproofed". Today everything, and I mean everything, has to be made in order to lessen the responsibility of parents. I picked up my dads Zippo lighter once and started playing with it. I did it once. After I couldn't sit down for 5 hours afterward, I never thought about doing it again.

Today, these same toddlers who can't figure out how to, "flick a Bic", are now telling teachers to go "F" themselves 5 years later. We sure are making progress in the parenting department, aren't we?

I couldn't agree with you more. Society's quest to make everything idiot proof has succeeded in producing many generations of idiots. Unfortunately those idiots are now becoming parents.

I grew up in the country and when I was six my dad let me shoot a 12 gauge. He then gave me a BB gun for Christmas. (I had every kind of toy gun you could imagine.) When I was nine I got my own 20 gauge shotgun. I could shoot it whenever I wanted. Well, whenever I had ammo anyway. Dad was at work, mom was in the kitchen, and I was out shooting up my ammo. I never shot my sister or anything I wasn't supposed to. When I was twelve I got a single shot .22. Same deal as the shotgun. Dad kept a loaded .38 in his sock drawer. (He had an FFL so I was around dozens of guns.) The gun was one of them there old fashioned nickel plated revolvers with stag grips. I knew where it was and I NEVER once touched it. I knew I would get one of them there old fashioned a$$ kickings.
One time (in a fit of boyish stupidity) I took the rubber cap off the projectile that fired from my Johnny Eagle over and under toy shotgun. I crept up behind my sister who was sitting in a chair and (not pointing the gun at her) blew a hole in her Weekly Reader. She ran to Dad.........
Don't have to tell you that didn't end well. My explanation that I didn't point it at her and she didn't get hit fell on deaf ears. Lost the gun and got my butt kicked. My friends and I had wars with the toy guns, (the neat old ones that shot plastic bullets) but we didn't shoot at each other's faces so we never shot anyone's eye out. I, however never toyed with the real thing.
I had a recurve bow and arrows, pocket knives, and when I wanted a sword on my belt I grabbed an old Japanese bayonet dad had hanging in the basement stairway. If dad needed some shells for shooting trap he would tell me to go downstairs and load up a few boxes. And all of this was before I turned thirteen.

I raised my daughter alone from a year and a half to after she turned eighteen.
I never childproofed my house by putting up the cleaners under the sink.
I never put up all the knives from the kitchen drawer.
I never hid my lighter which laid on the end table. (with the childproof crap removed)
I never locked up my handgun that was loaded and in the headboard of my bed.

But you know what else I never did?????............I never handed her a video game joystick as a baby sitter while I was out in the garage working on my truck, or outside mowing the lawn, or downstairs drinking beer with a bunch of friends.
I supervised her, disciplined her, and taught her right from wrong. And when she was old enough to understand I started training her. She knew how a gun felt in her hands, how it sounded when it went off, and what it did to a jug of water or watermelon. And she knew better than to ever go into my bedroom unless it was the only way to escape a fire. That was my space and she respected it. Even when she was very young and had a bad dream she would call my name from the doorway and not just walk in.
Now before the ranting begins about "What did she do when you weren't looking. I'll bet she went in there. I'll bet she this and that and blah blah blah".......... Well, she's 22 now and never shot herself or anyone else or set the house on fire or drank bleach or got arrested. It was a 24/7 responsibility and I did it all by myself. I'm not looking for a pat on the back. I'm just saying if one person can do it why in the world do two people have so much trouble?
There are no perfect parents or children for that matter. But my parents and I must have done something right when you consider the presence of firearms that was in our homes would make a new age politically correct moron cringe. And it wasn't luck either. It was responsible parenting. Something that isn't as common as it used to be.
When I see some kid running around acting like a damned fool and the parents smiling and saying: "They're just expressing themselves." , I think.......Yep, we'll be reading about them in the newspaper some day.

 

[LarryC]

Their child, entirely innocent, died because of the parents stupidity, and for no other reason.

"Feel sorry"? Absolutely not. But for the parents own stupidity, that young lad would be alive. No one should "feel sorry" for a parent that willfully and stupidly causes their child's death. Would one "feel sorry" for someone who took a loaded handgun, pointed it at their child, and pulled the trigger? Their wanton negligence did, in essence, exactly that. Any "more punishment"? No, it should be ADDITIONAL punishment as a result of their complete failure to act responsibly. They should derive NO 'benefit' from such wanton and reckless conduct.

What should they be convicted OF? Reckless homicide, manslaughter, child abuse, child negligence, misuse of a firearm? There's likely multiple charges they COULD be charged with, and should be charged with every crime applicable.

What good would prison do? It would get these people away from others they might harm, or cause to harm, including whatever children are still in their care, who should be immediately and permanently removed from the custody of these parents.

Does that sound 'harsh'? It's a helluva lot less 'harsh' than what happened to Cash Irby, Jr. due to the stupidity of his parents.

(From another Poster) - What if the parents read this? Well, at least they GET to do so. Cash, Jr. does NOT.

Well I was raised in an era (born in 1941) when almost every home had firearms exposed in the home - some loaded, if not ammo was available on the shelf or drawer near the firearm. ALL the children of that era were taught to not touch any firearm without an adult present and consenting to your handling the gun. During this era I never heard of any firearm accidents. Never heard of "Gun safes" until I was an adult. I was hunting and shooting on my own by the time I was 14, as were almost all my friends.

While this is a tragic incident, would you feel the same about punishment if their child had drowned in their swimming pool or found and consumed a poison household cleaner, aspirin or medication and died? There are far more children that die from other issues than firearms, it is just that the liberal media does not publish these.

Children die every day from accidental causes. Most, in retrospect could have been avoided and would have had everyone involved had the power to see the future. I'm talking about children falling down stairs, poisoning, auto accidents, choking on objects, drowning, fires etc. Most of these "accidents" never are published beyond the local news (there are so many), and in most cases the parents are sympathized with and held blameless.

It, however becomes a liberal media sensational event when a firearm is involved and gives the "gun control"
people ammunition to find fault. I really expect more from people on this site!!

No, these people do not deserve punishment, they deserve prayers and sympathy. They certainly will not make the same mistake (yeah it was a mistake, not an overt act of negligence), nor are they a "threat" to others.