22 people arrested at SHOT SHOW

[theweakerbrother]

Yup. Waste of time.

 

[Joe Williams]

Maybe S&W wouldn't play ball with the government again, like they did with Klinton, and Dear Leader is sending a message to the other companies. The timing and location of the arrests is spectacular.

 

[gglass]

Does anyone else see a more sinister element to this story? Look at the last two paragraphs and tell me this does not sound like an all out assault on small arms manufacturers.

He said the Justice Department currently has 140 open FCPA investigations. Kevin Perkins, assistant director of the FBI's criminal investigative division, said 20 agents were working on FCPA cases full time.

The cases are in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia, Nos. 09-335 through 09-350.

I would imagine that if the government brings enough pressure on small arms manufacturers, they might be a little more obliging to future demands of the government. You know... Things like micro stamping and semi-auto restrictions.

I'm just sayin'.

 

[scheesman]

scheesman you are making up stories and believing them! "Potentially" doesn't mean squat! Have you ever heard the joke about the boy asking his dad the difference between potential and reality? You are naive to the way the OTHER 95% of the world turns. Yes it happens here too, but not anything like other places around the globe.

I am not defending the actions they are charged with, but the entire thing (with what we KNOW at this point) sounds like a real scam, on the part of the government. I will reserve final judgment until more facts are reliably corroborated.

How am I making up stories? I'm not the one who made up the story that 250 people worked 40 hours a week for 2 years on this investigation. I'm not the one who calculated theoretical salaries and costs for said investigation! What OTHER 95% of the world are you referring to exactly? You may not agree with me, but you should at least consider being respectful...

 

[hornadylnl]

How is this much different than the shell game car dealers use to sell cars? Push, pull or drag it in, we'll give you $3000 for your trade in. They just aren't telling you they've marked up the price of the car you buy $3000.

 

[scheesman]

How is this much different than the shell game car dealers use to sell cars? Push, pull or drag it in, we'll give you $3000 for your trade in. They just aren't telling you they've marked up the price of the car you buy $3000.

Actually, I would say it's more like manufacturer rebates that dealers don't tell you about, then pocket when the deal is done.

 

[hornadylnl]

Actually, I would say it's more like manufacturer rebates that dealers don't tell you about, then pocket when the deal is done.

And in the situation described in the OP, you had 2 willing partners in the transaction. The people arrested and the "agents" that set up the sting.

I'm not a fan of prostitution but if you ever watch the stings on the show Cops, some of them are downright bs. They coax and coax some of these guys to come in. I'm just not a big fan of "sting" operations.

 

[WabashMX5]

Federal law prohibits foreign bribery? I guess that's an enumerated power of Congress under the International Commerce Clause?

 

[scheesman]

And in the situation described in the OP, you had 2 willing partners in the transaction. The people arrested and the "agents" that set up the sting.

I'm not a fan of prostitution but if you ever watch the stings on the show Cops, some of them are downright bs. They coax and coax some of these guys to come in. I'm just not a big fan of "sting" operations.

I actually agree with you here. The more I think about it, not sure why they're involved in an International deal. Especially if the whole deal was hypothetical and the Feds weren't asked to investigate by someone.

 

[hornadylnl]

I actually agree with you here. The more I think about it, not sure why they're involved in an International deal. Especially if the whole deal was hypothetical and the Feds weren't asked to investigate by someone.

So that they can create job security. You know, if they can't catch enough people committing crimes of their own volition, we need to bait them into it.

Let's just say you are the treasurer of a charitable organization. You are as pure as the wind driven snow regarding every action you have taken in that role. You are suspected as being dirty so you are under investigation. Another member of the organization is sent in to bait you into doing something that you shouldn't do. They lure you in by saying that you can take some money and show you how you could never be caught. You have a weak moment and give a verbal agreement to follow through with the plan. Are you a criminal? Even though you said you'd do it, what if 10 minutes later you realize what a stupid idea it is and don't follow through with it?

At what point is the "John" in a prostitution sting a criminal? When he agrees to a price? When he hands over the money? Or when he penetrates the undercover cop? I've been in the hallway of a whorehouse and had a fellow soldier offer to pay for me. I've even had a whore sitting in my lap. I never handed over cash and never penetrated one. So am I guilty of soliciting a prostitute? (By the way, the above took place in countries where it was legal)

I don't care what the temptation is for the corruption, we've all been victims of it. Each person handles temptations differently and we are all vulnerable. Even Jesus Christ was tempted. The act of being tempted is not a crime or a sin. How we act on that temptation determines whether we are committing a crime or a sin.

 

[norman428]

Everyone knows our government requires 11 FBI agents per person arrested in a case. I know it was a waste of money, but if its not this, they will just dump it into something like global warming, at least this has purpose.
And i agree that federal stings are a joke, they pretend to be bad guys. I don't believe in spending 20 mil in tax dollars on some FBI agents pretending to be the bad guys just to stop a 1 mil operation.

 

[Bigum1969]

Tax dollars at work.

 

[IndyMonkey]

What... corruption in business and government? Say it aint so.

 

[evansvillethompsongunner]

250 FBI agents worked on this. Seems like a waste of resources.

Given how many FBI agents they needed to raid Randy Weaver's home, this ratio shouldn't surprise you too terribly much... does it really?

 

[Joe Williams]

Given how many FBI agents they needed to raid Randy Weaver's home, this ratio shouldn't surprise you too terribly much... does it really?

Or David Koresh. Of course, when the local sheriff wanted to arrest him, it only took two. They went, knocked on the door, and cuffed him up....

 

[SSGSAD]

Gee, I thought that is what the dem's just did with "The LouisanaPurchase 2", and Neb., and whoever they "bought" to get the healthcare bill where it is.....If you are following the news, the dem's are not going to seat the R. winner in Mass. til AFTER they find a way to pass the HC legis.....

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Rather than posting what I think of this inane statute, I will simply post my video response. This is me addressing a Congressman:

YouTube - Syriana - Corruption (uncut)

 

[Roadie]

Very splashy arrest there.

..and they chose to do it at an Evil Gun Show...

 

[groovatron]

American ethics aside, let's compare the numbers.

The S&W folks marked up the sale of 1800 pistols by 20%.
At $800 each (which should be pretty steep if you are buying 1800) that comes out to ~$1.4MM.

Now, 250 agents working for 2 years on the project, as the article stated. Let's see what they cost...

• Assuming they work full time (40 hours)
• Put in 45 weeks a year (even Gov't people have to have a vacation every now and again)
• Have a base pay of $25/H (~$50K year, pretty meager for special agent pay)

That comes out to $22.5MM in expenses (not including fringes like insurance, 401K, etc.) on a sale of $1.4MM....hmmm

Keep in mind they (S&W) were paying an extra 'commission' (bribing) to an African (fictional) national. These types of payment are very typical in many parts of the world and considered an accepted part of business, to the extent that the 'commissions' are often 'budgeted'.

Hmmm, keep another country safe from the evil S&W empire or use the $22MM to really help America?

From the article:



Where are you getting multi-billion dollars?

Let's say 2,000 pistols at $500 each = $1,000,000.

250 agents X 2 years X $50,000 (assuming they were all at the entry pay grade) = $25,000,000.

Thanks for running the numbers. Like I thought, waste of resources.

LOL, they came out pretty even for having two independent folks running the figures.

You guys must be reading a different article than me. The Smith and Wesson rep was only 1 person out of 22 that got busted. They were just giving an example of ONE of the contracts. The article clearly states this. Others were from other company's involving firearms, armor, explosives, etc.....even from other countries. It sounds like you all think that it was 22 guys from S&W.....so much that you start making up hypothetical number analysis. It also states that 250 agents were involved.....I think it said 20 were full time. That makes a huge adjustment to you "estimates." If you are really interested in doing number estimates, I would highly suggest consulting more than one vague article as your source of information. I can't believe that no one has pointed this out. It's a perfect example of how people are wiling to rally around an idea without doing there own research.....and not even reading the limited information given.

P.S. Even though I think these number estimates are ill founded, I do agree with less bureaucracy overall and not happy with 99.9% of the money the government spends.

From the article:


" 250 FBI agents involved in probe"

"An executive for Smith & Wesson Holding Corp (SWHC.O) and 21 others have been charged with violating federal bribery laws"

"The indictments accused the individuals, including Smith & Wesson Vice President for Sales Amaro Three of the defendants worked for unnamed British companies; another worked for an unnamed Israeli company, according to the indictments."

"The defendants sought to obtain contracts for the sale of products ranging from grenade and tear gas launchers to pistols, ammunition and explosive detection kits."

"He said the Justice Department currently has 140 open FCPA investigations. Kevin Perkins, assistant director of the FBI's criminal investigative division, said 20 agents were working on FCPA cases full time."

 

[TopDog]

Potentially multi-billion dollar contracts. Just because they got caught with a "small" order doesn't mean that they wouldn't have done the same thing to land the re-armament of (insert your favorite country here). And if you reread the article, you will see that 250 agents didn't work full time on it. It clearly states there's only 20 agents working current cases anyways. 250 probably includes the undercover agents on the other end, all arresting and transportation agents, the investigating agents, and all of the other "part time players" in this sting. I still stand by my position.

Counter - Just because it says potentially doesn't mean any other infractions ever did or would occur. Just because they caught with a small order does not mean they ever did it before or would do it again or that its not a common business practice that they got caught up in.

I do agree with the 20 agents primarily involved not 250 full time.