2016 centerfire deer rifle push?

[Hookeye]

LOL..............TC says you can swap em as long as it doesn't go SBR.
Feds say you can't.
Did TC sell Contenders as complete rifles?
I know they had the kits.
Encores I have seen sold new as rifles (dunno what the manufacturer sold it as, or the dealer's 4473).

Per the old regs, if a TC was sold as handgun, and converted to rifle..........it couldn't go back to handgun.
They allowed that in 2011.

All Contenders I have bought, were in handgun config (but also used).
Currently own two Contenders, both in rifle form.

So it doesn't matter LOL.

Might be more of an issue with Encores..........if all Contenders (G1) were sold as handgun.

Messy.

And it really need not be.

Just say all TC interchangeable platform rigs must be sold as handguns. With the 2011 clarification.........good to go. Will dig some more...........ATF sight not the best for search LOL
(probably due to lingering butt hurt with TC)

 

[M4Madness]

BATFE Ruling 2011-4 ? Pistol to a Rifle and back to a Pistol | Prince Law Offices, P.C.

ATF 2011-4 allows for pistol-rifle-pistol swaps, but no rifle-pistol swaps.

Encores and Contenders are designated as rifle, pistol, or other on the Form 4473. Only frames are classified as "other". Handguns sales by dealers are prohibited for those kess than 21, but an 18 year old can buy a T/C rifle. That alone shows that all are not considered handgun frames.

 

[M4Madness]

BATFE Ruling 2011-4 ? Pistol to a Rifle and back to a Pistol | Prince Law Offices, P.C.

ATF 2011-4 allows for pistol-rifle-pistol swaps, but no rifle-pistol swaps.

Encores and Contenders are designated as rifle, pistol, or other on the Form 4473. Only frames are classified as "other". Handguns sales by dealers are prohibited for those less than 21, but an 18 year old can buy a T/C rifle. That alone shows that all are not considered handgun frames.

 

[Hookeye]

Ahhhhhhhh, so the D line now mandates SBR having buttstock as far as hunting deer goes.
That is the definition I was needing.
Based on the funky response I got years ago........I may have been in that loophole and/or they simply didn't know how to rule.
I wasn't trying to leverage SBR as handgun by state def and run it in handgun deer cartridge spec w buttstock.
Was wanting it in handgun form, to go by handgun spec (and state said yes to first part, no to second).

The progression of build (start with handgun or rifle) influencing legality, regardless of final form..............if that is so, then the state told me wrong way back. I can't run a rifle started SBR in handgun form, state or fed.

Like you said............can't trust the DNR on that stuff.

Thanks for helping me get the answer.

The BATF IMHO should make a clarification on TC (and similar).
The initial form can jack one up legally down the road, with the user of no ill intent.

By mandating all interchangeable platforms be sold as other/handgun...........that would negate the problem.

Why they didn't just do that, when so simple..............I think that part of the old butthurt thing.

 

[Hookeye]

So the way I read things

SBR doesn't have to have buttstock, if SBR came from handgun.
SBR must always have buttstock, if came from rifle start.

And TC can be a mess if sold as rifle from the start.

Per a few quick checks...........all say call TC w serial number to find out what you have.
A bare frame is an "other".

The 4473 used to not have that as an option.

I would think that the ease of interchangeability, the fed ruling on kits.........and the new "other" should allow a person to run a TC however they want (rifle or pistol) without fear. Of course it will cost somebody a lot of $ to get this declared.

My guess is that since TC platform is single shot............nobody really gives a hoot.
Still a gotcha on a possible unknown to consumer legality.........not in the same league as making illegal SBR with parts.

Like everything else the gov does...........make it such a mess they can enforce what they want, when they want.

 

[Hookeye]

Post #14 is interesting

New BATFE letter on TC firearms-effects Contenders and Encores - RimfireCentral.com Forums

 

[Hookeye]

If TC's are special due to being designed for conversion to rifle/pistol (per highlighted text in post #14 of link)..............then original config doesn't matter (since 2011).
Yes, an under 21 yrs old person may not buy a new handgun.
Does one have to be 21 to purchase a used handgun from a non FFL?

Even if so, does the TC ruling (2011) make a legally purchased rifle, illegal to convert to handgun?
If not, is that special type of firearm illegal to convert by persons under 21?

Per the BATF lawsuit with TC, the court did mention the possible criminal aspect of doing conversions......as how many TC illegal SBR's had been involved in criminal activity.
That might have been instrumental in getting the TC interchangeable handgun/rifle/shotgun/MZ platform a special allowance.

Some say there is no allowance, but per the 2011 ruling it appears there may be.

P*sses me off how they circle the issue and don't just make a definitive statement.
With the BATF and TC lawsuit conclusion, my guess is that the agency is not trying to be clear on pro TC statements.

 

[Hookeye]

Per the 2011............TC never made the Contender or Encore "only as a rifle"........so I would bet that it's fine to swap em around, as long as you don't get into SBR territory in the process.

However, M4 brings up a good point about under 21 buying a TC long arm and then making it a handgun.
But even then, the under 21 purchaser did not buy it in handgun form initially.
And it is not illegal for a person under 21 to own a handgun, or carry it.

So even if the intent is to go handgun straight away (after TC long gun purchase)...........it isn't purchased as a handgun.

Of course one could be drug into court over stuff that's more plainly spelled out. One can be 100% legal and still fork over a lot of defensive money.

It is interesting in that not all that long ago, TC brought out the Encore FX..........which is muzzleloader only, won't accept regular Encore bbls (it is and will only be by factory parts, a muzzleloader).

Previous to that, all TC Contender/Encore were classified as firearms, even those sold and kept only with MZ barrels (because they could be converted to handguns and rifles)

 

[Paul30]

The guy using his shotgun after around 8 years of having less recoil options already available is likely going continue to use his shotguns no matter what occurs in the present. Same goes with shooters flinch. If one has developed shooters flinch and has not already made steps to correct it, then it is their problem and I see no reason to make special circumstances for them.

Also most women and youth shooters will be relating with recoil more than ballistics so changing things for them would likely go unappreciated. People want to use high powered rifles because they personally want to use them. It is understandable wanting to use a superior cartridge but I just don't understand people using other people's issues hypothetically to justify what they want for themselves. My stance is I want to use a high powered rifle because I simply want to.

Many move from other states and own standard hunting rifles, and don't really want to buy a pistol caliber rifle when they already own a real rifle. I refuse to call them high power rifles, because that is like calling one an assault rifle to me. It really isn't high powered to me unless it can saw a tank in half. Those who own a shotgun may not feel going to a weaker pistol round is a move up, yet going to a standard hunting round would be a motivator. I know several who went to a muzzle loader because they are good for many seasons, and more powerful and accurate than a shotgun or pistol caliber rifle. Many I know just decided to bypass the whole road block and go to a standard hunting caliber in a pistol. I recall a few family members went to a rifle caliber pistol. Anything from 7.62 x 39 to 3006. They make them in several calibers and they work great. When the state will not be reasonable, just go around them.

How do Rifle-Caliber Pistols Perform: Spike's Tactical ST-15 vs Kel-Tec PLR16 vs Arsenal SAM7K - The Firearm Blog

Or 300 WSM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqEj5HXxjM

I really like the 300 BO with a sig arm brace.

 

[ryknoll3]

I hunt on family property in Wisconsin with my 300 BLK SBR. It's wooded property, the shots are under 100 yds and the gun is perfect for that. I also have rifles in .30-06, .303 British, 7.5x55 Swiss and .308 that I enjoy shooting, am proficient with and would be perfectly suitable for deer. It's stupid that I should have to buy another rifle in a caliber I'm not interested in just to shoot deer in Indiana. I hope this bill gets passed, and then I hope it's amended sometime soon to allow SBR's.

 

[d80hunter]

Many move from other states and own standard hunting rifles, and don't really want to buy a pistol caliber rifle when they already own a real rifle. I refuse to call them high power rifles, because that is like calling one an assault rifle to me. It really isn't high powered to me unless it can saw a tank in half. Those who own a shotgun may not feel going to a weaker pistol round is a move up, yet going to a standard hunting round would be a motivator. I know several who went to a muzzle loader because they are good for many seasons, and more powerful and accurate than a shotgun or pistol caliber rifle. Many I know just decided to bypass the whole road block and go to a standard hunting caliber in a pistol. I recall a few family members went to a rifle caliber pistol. Anything from 7.62 x 39 to 3006. They make them in several calibers and they work great. When the state will not be reasonable, just go around them.

How do Rifle-Caliber Pistols Perform: Spike's Tactical ST-15 vs Kel-Tec PLR16 vs Arsenal SAM7K - The Firearm Blog

Or 300 WSM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKqEj5HXxjM

I really like the 300 BO with a sig arm brace.

I understand you wanting to use rifles but I think you are underestimating pistol caliber rifles especially when referencing 7.62x39 and 300 BO with a short barrel. Did you know a 44 magum rifle is close to a 50 caliber muzzleloader loaded to 100 grains in terms of bullet weight and velocity. 450 bushmaster, 458 socom, 454 casull, and 460 S&W will be comparable to a 12 gauge shotgun and good for 200 yards, providing way more knock down power, more tank sawing, than the tactical guns your first link provided. I think you are wrong about about the current regulation firearms usefulness but I in no way saying you don't need a rifle or SBR to hunt, that is your choice, but biased and a little misinformed about guns you don't care for. They all will kill deer effectivly but some are better than others. I think I remember you saying you don't hunt.

 

[Paul30]

I understand you wanting to use rifles but I think you are underestimating pistol caliber rifles especially when referencing 7.62x39 and 300 BO with a short barrel. Did you know a 44 magum rifle is close to a 50 caliber muzzleloader loaded to 100 grains in terms of bullet weight and velocity. 450 bushmaster, 458 socom, 454 casull, and 460 S&W will be comparable to a 12 gauge shotgun and good for 200 yards, providing way more knock down power, more tank sawing, than the tactical guns your first link provided. I think you are wrong about about the current regulation firearms usefulness but I in no way saying you don't need a rifle or SBR to hunt, that is your choice, but biased and a little misinformed about guns you don't care for. They all will kill deer effectivly but some are better than others. I think I remember you saying you don't hunt.

I am familiar with the properties of multiple types of firearms. I am not biased against certain guns, I just don't like to be restricted to using a lesser capable firearm when others will be a better choice. They have been trying to ban semi auto firearms for years and we would likely be able to defend our lives with revolvers but it should be up to the people to choose what is best for us. I don't hunt, but I am aware of how to kill if I feel the need. "Knock down power" is a fairy tale. Perhaps faster more efficient kill would describe it better with a well placed shot and good wound channel. I am aware of pistol caliber rifles, I personally have a Marlin 44 magnum lever action that is a nice gun to shoot and would kill fine. I am an accuracy shooter and could kill a deer with about any firearm, but that really isn't the question here.

The law needs to change, because it is the right thing to do. A standard caliber hunting rifle will drop an elk or moose better than a pistol caliber rifle. If a person wants to own a single hunting rifle and use it in more states than this one a pistol caliber is not the good choice. There is an old saying, fear the person who owns one gun, because he probably knows how to use it well. Standard caliber rifles will have less drop at about any distant which means it is more accurate and different ranges rather than depending on a scope card to dial it in each time or guesstimate how much to hold high or low. The real issue here is that it is probably more safe to hunt with a standard hunting rifle, but paranoia seems to be dictating the laws that are currently standing. We no longer water test for witches, we know the world is round, we know open carry or concealed carry doesn't cause blood in the streets, and hopefully in a year or two we will know that different caliber rifles also will not result in blood in the streets. There is no legitimate reason for it to be illegal to hunt with the same caliber hunting rifle's the rest of the country uses with no issues.

 

[d80hunter]

Rifle Trajectory Table

You might be aware of this but virtually every rifle, if you sight in no higher than 3 inches at the highest part of a bullets trajectory, will be low at 3 inches at or around 300 yards. If you plan on shooting any further you will still need to holdover, utilize BDC or Mildot marks, or dial the scope accordingly. Most hunting shots around here will allow you to just aim and shoot with a HPR but out west I have seen shooters struggle with long range shots because they thought they didn't feel the need to understand their rifles trajectory like you would with a non HPR or archery equipment.

Standard caliber rifles will have less drop at about any distant which means it is more accurate and different ranges rather than depending on a scope card to dial it in each time or guesstimate how much to hold high or low

 

[Paul30]

Rifle Trajectory Table

You might be aware of this but virtually every rifle, if you sight in no higher than 3 inches at the highest part of a bullets trajectory, will be low at 3 inches at or around 300 yards.

I am more of a target shooter, I am following this thread more for my family and simply the idea that something so simple for the other 49 states seems to baffle Indiana legislators. I know if you want to kill something, and be humane about it then shot placement is very important. A gun that has a trajectory like a rainbow will never be as accurate for the average person than one that shoots a lower trajectory. a 44 magnum is a great gun, but when you put it beside the basic 3006 that is your basic 30 caliber that has been used since, well 1906 (pun intended as that is where it got it's name) the difference can be a maimed deer or a miss. I know many don't shoot at longer distances, but some do get that chance and can do it safely with the right equipment. My brother can shoot as well as I can, and he hunts with a muzzle loader because his muzzle loader can shoot much more accurate than a shotgun and can be used in all gun seasons.

.44 Remington Magnum (Rifle Data) Ballistics GunData.org

.30-06 Springfield Ballistics GunData.org

Compare data on 2 bullets by simply selecting "compare 2 bullets" and you will see visually how superior a regular rifle round is. It's a nice tool even outside this discussion forum. Ballistic Calculator GunData.org

 

[Tynimiller]

I say to avoid all the confusion and "idiot-ness" of cartridges being legal out of a pistol but not a long gun and so on so forth is either make them legal or illegal entirely.

Easy for me to say though, I only bow hunt anymore for deer personally. Gun hunting them doesn't have the thrill to me personally.

 

[rmasters744]

It would be great but many, many thing to work out. I agree with Woobie, I believe it's ever other years.