20 or 12 ga shotgun for home defense?

[melensdad]

OK I know that all the nifty tactical shotguns are 12 gauge guns, so the burly manly men will probably give knee jerk reactions and say that the whimpy 20 gauge is the wrong answer here . . .

BUT

. . . for those open minded enough to listen, I have to wonder if the 12 gauge is wrong and the 20 gauge is really the better choice for a home defense gun.

Ballistics, the 20 gauge provides 70% of the energy on the target, but has only 50% of the recoil of the 12 gauge. So it is a very efficient round. No question that buckshot from either gun will punch neat little 32 caliber holes right through bad guy. No question that (at home defense distances) that either of them will provide very tight 1.5" to 3" groups into center of mass.

Size, if the only person in the house is an adult male, then we can end the discussion right here and say a 12 gauge is fine, but if there are teen age children, even pre-teens, or if there is a smaller framed spouse in the house, then a YOUTH SIZED 20 gauge will fit these smaller people much better, further it will reduce the overall length of the gun slightly because the stock will be shorter, making it easier to move through doorways and hallways.

Thoughts?

 

[cce1302]

20 gauge will cause violent acts toward the homeowner to cease as rapidly as 12 gauge will, and I'm pretty sure that's the effect we're going for.

 

[melensdad]

20 gauge will cause violent acts toward the homeowner to cease as rapidly as 12 gauge will, and I'm pretty sure that's the effect we're going for.

Well that is exactly my thought.

But to expand upon that, 20 gauge will stop the violent act and be easier to use by most/all members of the family.

A 6'+ tall man can easily use a 20 gauge or a 12 gauge, but a 5'4" slender 13 year old child will manage the 20 gauge with much more ease, confidence and much more ability to provide a potentially needed follow up shot. The 20 gauge gun will be lighter to carry for the smaller person, as mentioned before only provided 1/2 the recoil energy, and is smaller dimensionally.

When we plan for any sort of SHTF, are we not supposed to factor in the 'least common denominator' issues inside our own homes?

So does it not makes sense to size the home defense shotgun to work best with the smallest size person that is likely to use the gun?

 

[imprimis5]

I've heard it said a number of times, "Better the .22 you'll shoot than the .44 Mag you won't." That same logic, I believe, can be applied to shotguns. A 12ga isn't going to do anyone any good if it isn't going to be or can't be fired, and a 20ga can certainly be used effectively by anyone, at least in HD usage.

 

[notasccrmom]

I completely agree that a 20 gauge is a better all around, works for anybody type of shotgun. I prefer 20 over 12 because all macho-ness aside, they are a lot more comfortable to shoot and my fiancee can use it effectively too. The hard part is finding one that has a long mag tube. I really wish that Remington made an 870 Tactical in 20 gauge.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

I would have absolutely no issues with a 20ga over the 12ga...

Both are good varmint medicine.

And, as you're slanting your argument, the physiology of those using the tool MUST be taken into account. 20ga. are often smaller and lighter than their big brothers.

Often less expensive, too.

An 870 "youth" in 20ga would make a mighty fine "go to" gun for the teens who may be left home alone. Especially, as you said, with a shell full of .32 projectiles.

-J-

 

[melensdad]

And, as you're slanting your argument, the physiology of those using the tool MUST be taken into account.

Well isn't that the whole point of a home defense gun?

It must be useable by any member of the family that may be at home and may be required to use the gun?

What got me thinking about all this was my 14 year old daughter. She will gladly shoot a 9mm handgun, occasionally will shoot a 45acp, but is afraid of a 223 round out of a rifle despite the fact that the 45acp in a sub-2# handgun has more recoil energy than a 223 fired from a 7# rifle. Some of the fear is noise, some is muzzle flash, but it all must be taken into account. So looking at home defense shotguns, the 12 gauge would be a monumentally fierce choice, and probably be my first choice if I was the only one living in the house . . . but as my wife and daughter are both smaller than I am it seems like, after putting thought into it, the 12 gauge would be a stupid choice for a home defense gun when there are 'less capable' people living in the home.

 

[imprimis5]

Here's an idea. 20ga for your wife and daughter, 12ga for you. Solves every issue, and now you have two guns instead of one. :-)

 

[melensdad]

Here's an idea. 20ga for your wife and daughter, 12ga for you. Solves every issue, and now you have two guns instead of one. :-)

Well I like the way you think but will have to say that there are some other issues to consider.

As noted in the 1st post, the 20 gauge puts roughly 70% of the energy into the target, that means it will also put 70% of the energy into the wall if there is a missed shot. 12 gauge buckshot will travel through a half dozen walls, which is not really the best thing inside a house. 20 gauge, based on 70% energy on target will likely stop a good deal sooner.

Further, at close range both will punch a series of holes clean through a zombie, but the 12 gauge can probably punch those holes and then punch holes through a wall and then inflict damage on an innocent in an adjacent room. The 20 gauge would likely stop in the wall, or at least lose enough energy to make it less than lethal in the next room.

 

[FordMan08]

I thing a 20 ga. is just fine. Pretend the intruder is a turkey and pepper his head.

 

[melensdad]

I thing a 20 ga. is just fine.

Yeah, I think so too. But I am beginning to think it is more than 'just fine' for Home Defense.

I am now thinking it is the better choice for home defense.

There seems to be plenty of evidence to support the 20 gauge over the 12.

 

[Rookie]

If you are worried about penetration issues, have you considered bird shot instead of buckshot?

In my house, the role of the shotgun is defense, not clearing rooms. Our house is set up that a zombie is going to have to come down a hall to get to us and my bedroom is at the end of the hall. Kids are in the master bathroom and the zombie is gonna be upset if he doesn't turn and run.

I have given thought about using a shotgun to clear rooms, but the problem with any long gun is length. No matter how hard you try, (in my house at least), a shotgun barrel is gonna go into a room before you. Makes me wish we could legally own a SBS.

As far as women/children and shotguns. I guess I'm lucky enough to have a wife and daughters that love shooting and actually enjoy recoil. The first round any of my girls shot was a 3-inch magnum loaded with buckshot. I told them that if they could handle that then there wasn't a gun they couldn't handle. My daughters proudly showed off their bruises that day (they each ended up shooting at least 15 rounds a piece). All things considered, I still want to get a nice 20 gauge for them simply because of the weight issues.

 

[Gungho_1989]

I completely agree that a 20 gauge is a better all around, works for anybody type of shotgun. I prefer 20 over 12 because all macho-ness aside, they are a lot more comfortable to shoot and my fiancee can use it effectively too. The hard part is finding one that has a long mag tube. I really wish that Remington made an 870 Tactical in 20 gauge.

They Do Make a HD in 20Ga

The draw back to the 20 Ga is that there are not as many defense loads available for them, You have Buck and Slugs but no managed recoil stuff like you do with the 12ga. Also trying to find any type of buck for them sometimes can be a chore. Unless you plan on using slugs straight up then I would swing towards the 12 ga.
The reason is is with the proper stock such as a knoxx and the reduced recoil loads you can tame them rather well and make them comfortable for virtually any shooter. The adjustability of the knoxx or Mesa allows smaller statured shooters to run them comfortably.

I recently built a 20 Hd up for a demo as well as for my wife. Its a great little shotgun but it was snappy until I added the Knoxx to it. the lighter weight and virtually the same loading you find for 12 ga 1oz in slugs and shot make the little gun a little more painful than a similarly loaded 12.
Fortunately Knoxx seen fit to make recoil reducing stocks for the 20's as well so this is not as big an issue but it still is snappier than the 12.
An example of 20 versus 12 is my wife and I had a set of white onyx's mine in 20 and hers in 12. I used the light tartget loads in my 12 but there was just nothing avialable of that type for the 20 My wife ended up using the 12 far more than she did the 20 its was just too hard on her.
The key to getting the wife shooting is for them to be comfortable and extra light target loads in a bit of a heavier gun will get them out practicing and take the sting out of it. Cause if thier like my wife and they get a bit too much recoil they won't play for the rest of the day.

 

[jennybird]

If there is an intruder threatening their lives, the LAST thing they'll be worried about is recoil. Adrenalin will be pumpin so hard your wife/teenager won't feel a thing. Get something that will fit them... that they can easily handle in a stressful moment... have them practice with it (with a sissy pad on their shoulder if necessary)... I guarantee that in an emergency situation the recoil won't matter.

Either one makes for great defense. But it sounds to me like you've already made your decision. You've obviously done your homework. Don't doubt yourself... Just do it.

 

[Gungho_1989]

Rookie not to bust your chops here but Bird shot is the last thing you should use in a defense gun.
The key to avoiding penetration issues is to make sure you have a center mass shot on your intended target and to be very away of what is behind it.
Also in my opinion a long gun gives you advantages you don't get with a pistol. A guy grabs your pistol barrel as you come around a corner and he can turn it rather easily.
A long gun that you have both hands on gives you the advantage of leverage Plus the added chance of a hit under stress.
I know alot of folks I consider good at this game that say the pistol is just there so you can safely get to a long gun and finish the fight.

 

[melensdad]

If you are worried about penetration issues, have you considered bird shot instead of buckshot?

Yes, and penetration tests have proved that it is a bad choice at even home defense issues. Sure it will result in a very bad superficial wound if it gets through to the bad guy, but heavy clothes have been shown to stop birdshot.

If there is an intruder threatening their lives, the LAST thing they'll be worried about is recoil. Adrenalin will be pumpin so hard your wife/teenager won't feel a thing. Get something that will fit them... that they can easily handle in a stressful moment... have them practice with it (with a sissy pad on their shoulder if necessary)... I guarantee that in an emergency situation the recoil won't matter.

Regarding recoil in a stress situation, I will agree they will not feel it, however they may not be able to recover quickly from it for a follow up shot. That is the issue.

Rookie not to bust your chops here but Bird shot is the last thing you should use in a defense gun.
The key to avoiding penetration issues is to make sure you have a center mass shot on your intended target and to be very away of what is behind it.

Ditto the birdshot issue, but disagree (at least partially) on the penetration issue. Buckshot will go through a target at short ranges. So you must worry about it inside a home. If you are in a defensive situation where the bad guy is coming at you, you may be able to call your shot angle and pre-determine the backstop, but if you are in a hallway or walking the house then you do not have that luxury.

We must all realize that inside a home the shooting distances will likely be under 15', even in a large room. Think about that. If you are on one end of a 20' long room and have a shotgun up to your shoulder, the muzzle of the gun will be about 4' from the wall. So even if the bad guy is pressed up firm against the opposite wall, his chest will be roughly 15' away. More than likely you won't be pressed against the wall and neither will the zombie target. That brings down the shooting distance to a much more likely 9' to 12' inside a room that is 20' across. Most of 9 pellets of 32 caliber buckshot will easily penetrate the 12" chest of the zombie and continue on through a wall or two after penetration.

The 20 gauge will hold a few less pellets but be no less lethal even if it 'only' provides 70% of the terminal energy. But that 30% loss will translate into fewer lethal wall penetrating projectiles. Thoughts?

 

[shooter521]

They Do Make a HD in 20Ga

Yup. And the "tactical" as well, with the extended mag and Knoxx stock:
Remington Model 870™ Express® Express® 7-Shot 20-GA Premier Dealer Exclusive

The draw back to the 20 Ga is that there are not as many defense loads available for them... Also trying to find any type of buck for them sometimes can be a chore.

Leave it to the shotgun guru to take the words right outta my mouf!

A buddy of mine has a Saiga-20. His gun is lighter, swings better, has less recoil, and feels much more like an AK than do my Saiga-12s. That said, the selection of aftermarket parts, accessories and hi-cap mags for the S-20 is about nil, and ammo is more expensive with fewer varieties available, especially in defensive loadings. A quick search on Ammoman, Natchez and Ammunition to Go reveals that the only 20ga buckshot loadings available are #3 Buck (20x 25-cal. pellets) from Federal and Winchester (1 load from each mfr), and both were out of stock at all 3 venues.

IMO, it is the low cost, wide variety and universal availability of everything 12ga (ammo, guns and parts) that makes it tops for personal defense, rather than its ballistic advantages over the 20ga (which are present, but maybe less significant for the home/personal defense mission). This goes double for the "SHTF" or survival role, where you might not have an established supply chain, but instead have to borrow/scrounge/steal from whatever is available at hand.

I know alot of folks I consider good at this game that say the pistol is just there so you can safely get to a long gun and finish the fight.

It has long been said that the handgun is the maneuver weapon, while the shotgun is fixed-place artillery. I couldn't agree more, and that's exactly how they are employed in our HD plan.

 

[melensdad]

IMO, it is the low cost, wide variety and universal availability of everything 12ga (ammo, guns and parts) that makes it tops for personal defense, rather than its ballistic advantages over the 20ga (which are present, but maybe less significant for the home/personal defense mission).

I suppose I don't buy this argument. For a home defense gun cost should not matter too much, nor should 'variety' of loads. I don't see it as a real disadvantage that only 1 loading from Fed or Win is available in buckshot as either will do the job. Buy the gun, buy a dozen boxes of ammo, practice a few times a year with the family, and you still have a box or two of ammo left for the zombie. Realistically you may buy ammo for this gun 1 time a year for your practice sessions, buy 10 at a time and you are good to go.

As for accessories, again, not an issue. The gun you linked to is pretty much perfect for the role. Once you have it you don't need to waste all sorts of money on 'accessories', it is what it is designed to be and that is what you are buying. If you want a gun to tinker around with then have it built up custom. This gun is a business gun. Get it. Get the family familiar with it. Don't screw it up. Keep the family familiar with it.

It strikes me that the 20 has a real life tactical advantage over the 12 for family home defense use.

 

[Rookie]

Rookie not to bust your chops here but Bird shot is the last thing you should use in a defense gun.
The key to avoiding penetration issues is to make sure you have a center mass shot on your intended target and to be very away of what is behind it.
Also in my opinion a long gun gives you advantages you don't get with a pistol. A guy grabs your pistol barrel as you come around a corner and he can turn it rather easily.
A long gun that you have both hands on gives you the advantage of leverage Plus the added chance of a hit under stress.
I know alot of folks I consider good at this game that say the pistol is just there so you can safely get to a long gun and finish the fight.

I absolutely agree that a shotgun is preferred over a handgun for home defense. My point was that I don't think it's a good idea to clear a house with a shotgun OR a handgun. I think it's wiser to sit back and let them come to you.

As far as birdshot...ok.

EDIT: I don't wanna be the one who got this thread off-topic, so, I think that if your wife and kids are more comfortable with a 20-gauge then go for it. The only reason I haven't considered a 20 over a 12 is that my 20-gauge is a single shot POS. I have told my wife that when my girls move out, I will be buying them a 20-gauge for HD simply because of the weight issues.

 

[Gungho_1989]

I absolutely agree that a shotgun is preferred over a handgun for home defense. My point was that I don't think it's a good idea to clear a house with a shotgun OR a handgun. I think it's wiser to sit back and let them come to you.

As far as birdshot...ok.

I agree with you completely on that. The best thing to do is take up a defensive position and call the police. If the situation allows but if you have a kid in another part of the house you may need to maneuver through the Zombie hoard.and as our lil tactical smiley here shows it two pistols and down the hall Antonio Banderas style.


Shooter put up the exact gun I just built with the exception of a couple of small items. Geeze I think Remington has my place bugged!?!
Also Guru would be a gross overstatement.
Melensdad you bring up alot of good points,
The pass through issue is exactly right and close range the majority of your shot if not all is going to pass through. I have to very aware of this in my house as my neighborhood is rather tight, When I stroll through my house on a what if walk through I am very conscious of where my Neighbors homes are and try to plan my attack or defense accordingly as you stated we don't always have that luxury but it pays to give it some thought ahead of time. A shot passing through the house next door and hitting the 75 year old lady in her recliner next door isnt going to play well in the media or the courts no matter how good the shoot is.
If I can step one step to the right though and put the Fridge behind the guy or a long wall.... (If I even have the presance of mind to do it) no matter what I'm shooting its a good idea.