2 LTCH holders arrested

[Bill B]

The real question - as it applies to all of us here (and to be honest, it concerns me greatly) is:

If I am stopped while doing nothing illegal (assuming that I am not operating a motor vehicle), and it is discovered that I am carrying a firearm (whether OC or CC), and I DO comply and show my LTCH... can an officer still charge me with "Failure to assist" if he continues to ask for further identification and I refuse?

I understand that IC 34-28-5-3.5 states that I am only required to identify myself if I am suspected of an infraction or ordinance violation, but isn't the whole "Failure to Assist and Officer" somewhat arbitrary at best? Couldn't an officer charge you with that for refusing to comply with just about ANY request?

You can be charged with anything the officer can think up. Will it stick. I would think that a counter complaint with the ISP for intimidation would be in order.
IANAL, YMMV, etc.

 

[Bunnykid68]

The real question - as it applies to all of us here (and to be honest, it concerns me greatly) is:

If I am stopped while doing nothing illegal (assuming that I am not operating a motor vehicle), and it is discovered that I am carrying a firearm (whether OC or CC), and I DO comply and show my LTCH... can an officer still charge me with "Failure to assist" if he continues to ask for further identification and I refuse?

I understand that IC 34-28-5-3.5 states that I am only required to identify myself if I am suspected of an infraction or ordinance violation, but isn't the whole "Failure to Assist and Officer" somewhat arbitrary at best? Couldn't an officer charge you with that for refusing to comply with just about ANY request?

I wouldn't think so, once you have shown your LTCH you have proved there is no crime afoot.

 

[wizard_of_ahs]

Why cant people just cooperate with LEO's.. you know, i doubt the LEO's enjoy getting called out to these kinds of things, it makes those of us who OC look bad when people like these two men do stuff like this that stereotype us all as pain in the a$$ loonies...

Just show your papers and be on your way, not to difficult to do.

I hate that statement

 

[Rookie]

I think hoosierdood has hit on what a lot of us are concerned about.

 

[wizard_of_ahs]

I think hoosierdood has hit on what a lot of us are concerned about.

Agreed

 

[kludge]

Sounds like a couple pro-active open carry advocates applying the laws of other states in Indiana.

"Open Carry" in many other states is not prima facie reason for detention or arrest. In Indiana it is.

 

[Rookie]

Playing devil's advocate...

Is it? Has it ever been tested?

 

[eldirector]

Playing devil's advocate...

Is it? Has it ever been tested?

Folks get arrested pretty frequently for carrying without a license. Hit the Indy crime blotter for this month's list. There are a few on there.

The difference I believe kludge is trying to point out is that in Indiana, it is illegal to carry a gun. At all. Concealed or Open. Your defense is your pink piece of paper. You can produce it on the spot and avoid any real headache, or you can produce it later and risk being detained in the meantime. Either way, if a LEO sees a handgun on your person, they could very well have reasonable suspicion to stop you and check.

In other states, it is perfectly legal to carry openly - without any sort of licensing at all. Hiding it requires special permission.

 

[Ted]

You can be charged with anything the officer can think up. Will it stick. I would think that a counter complaint with the ISP for intimidation would be in order.
IANAL, YMMV, etc.

Correct. Al Capone charge, tried, and incarcerated for Income Tax evasion for one reason: It was the only way to nail him on something.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Sounds like a couple pro-active open carry advocates applying the laws of other states in Indiana.

"Open Carry" in many other states is not prima facie reason for detention or arrest. In Indiana it is.

THIS!!!

I need to show Blue Falcon this thread... We were arguing about this the other day.

Poor dumb bastards. See how riding the line of what is or isn't legal can get you in trouble when you are otherwise legal but make ONE mistake???

(I am assuming the knife is a simple assisted opener like my own daily carry)

 

[Rookie]

Folks get arrested pretty frequently for carrying without a license. Hit the Indy crime blotter for this month's list. There are a few on there.

The difference I believe kludge is trying to point out is that in Indiana, it is illegal to carry a gun. At all. Concealed or Open. Your defense is your pink piece of paper. You can produce it on the spot and avoid any real headache, or you can produce it later and risk being detained in the meantime. Either way, if a LEO sees a handgun on your person, they could very well have reasonable suspicion to stop you and check.

In other states, it is perfectly legal to carry openly - without any sort of licensing at all. Hiding it requires special permission.

I'm asking if anyone has ever been convicted of refusing to show their ltch. It seems (with the scarce facts that we have) that these two are looking at just that.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

I'm asking if anyone has ever been convicted of refusing to show their ltch. It seems (with the scarce facts that we have) that these two are looking at just that.

The way the law reads, they cannot be charged with anything AFAIK. This will be an interesting test case for sure. This has the possibility to go to Appeals or ISC and get some case law on the issue.

 

[Rookie]

I agree and I'm wondering if this was their intentions.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

I agree and I'm wondering if this was their intentions.

Hmm. More info needed to form a hypothesis based on this assumption but intriguing to say the least.

 

[Rookie]

I'm just thinking out loud. The only reason I make the statement is because it's accepted that you must show ltch upon request.

 

[Rookie]

Of course, Deburry v. State clouds the issue a little (especially if it were CC)

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I'm asking if anyone has ever been convicted of refusing to show their ltch.

Not that I am aware of.

I have had more than several arrested for not showing LTCH (usually dead drunk).

 

[Rookie]

Kirk, can you see any way refusal to aid being a legitimate charge? I understand the facts are sketchy, so I can ask another way.

When is refusal to aid normally applied?

 

[KG1]

The way the law reads, they cannot be charged with anything AFAIK. This will be an interesting test case for sure. This has the possibility to go to Appeals or ISC and get some case law on the issue.

That's kinda the argument I was making. It seems to me that what they were arrested for conflicts with the procedures already spelled out in IC for carrying without a license.

It was my contention that it was the wrong application and they should've been brought in under the pretense of carrying without a license if anything for failure to provide proof that they were legal.

This arrest seems to be outside the scope of IC pertaining to firearm carry with the conditions for carry or penalties that have a remedy provided upon proof of exemption.

My question is how can you be arrested for "refusal to aid police" but not for unlawfully carrying a firearm without proof of exemption if they don't even know whether or not you have an LTCH in the first place?

 

[Rookie]

Not that I am aware of.

I have had more than several arrested for not showing LTCH (usually dead drunk).

Another question, was the arrest (and I assume charges) something that you could make go away before going to court (showing ltch to prosecutor)?