17 year old kid shot dead by Neighborhood Watch "Captain"

[Kutnupe14]

This is how I feel. My deepest hope is that Z is found innocent.

I can tell you this: if T was white, and had the background and lifestyle we're reading about, this would have been open and close, with Z free and living his life right now. But because T was black, and because it's 2013 and we have a half-black president, this has now become a case of racism and retribution against a "white perpetrator" (Z).

Given what is happening with our culture and in Washington DC right now with all of the scandals, cover-ups, lying, and double-talk, and seeing how Americans really don't seem to mind what this administration is doing/has done, this case will not go well for Z (as an extension of the culture shift and as retribution for past cultural sins).

Doubtful.... and on the flip side of that argument, those that will use race to focus on this tragedy would say, that had T had been white, Z would have never followed him.

 

[SOCOM242]

You still haven't qualified "thug," unless you want to group a large majority of American youth in that category, regardless of race or socio-economic status.

Which photos, text messages are you referencing?

You'll find several of them here:

https://www.google.com/search?safe=...Q&biw=1920&bih=930&sei=6qKwUdWFEIX5ygGGroGoDw

 

[SOCOM242]

Doubtful.... and on the flip side of that argument, those that will use race to focus on this tragedy would say, that had T had been white, Z would have never followed him.

Perhaps, but I'll be honest, if I saw a teenager walking around in the evening with his hood up and dressed the way T was it would arouse my suspicion as well, even if I couldn't determine his race. I think this has more to do with Z seeing a hooded figure in an area where problems had occurred in the past, more so than T's race.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Perhaps, but I'll be honest, if I saw a teenager walking around in the evening with his hood up and dressed the way T was it would arouse my suspicion as well, even if I couldn't determine his race. I think this has more to do with Z seeing a hooded figure in an area where problems had occurred in the past, more so than T's race.

That's possible, but Z wasnt a police officer, and T hadn't committed a crime. IMO Z actions led up confrontation. I said "led," not started. That we will never know. It's not out of the realm of possibilty that a hot headed teen would confront someone that they thought was following them. Who did "what," is the big mystery... and because that can't ever be known, I figure Z should probably avoid conviction. However, public perception of Zimmerman as a pariah, is well deserved.

 

[CarmelHP]

That's possible, but Z wasnt a police officer, and T hadn't committed a crime. IMO Z actions led up confrontation. I said "led," not started. That we will never know. It's not out of the realm of possibilty that a hot headed teen would confront someone that they thought was following them. Who did "what," is the big mystery... and because that can't ever be known, I figure Z should probably avoid conviction. However, public perception of Zimmerman as a pariah, is well deserved.

Pariah, why? Because you want his life destroyed as you've stated before? You alleged at one point that it was manslaughter because Zimmerman was "illegally trying to detain Martin" which was a fable. Zimmerman had a legal right and privilege to do all the actions he took, and was attacked. Everything else was ginned up by race hucksters and a rapacious press.

 

[BigMatt]

Pariah, why? Because you want his life destroyed as you've stated before? You alleged at one point that it was manslaughter because Zimmerman was "illegally trying to detain Martin" which was a fable. Zimmerman had a legal right and privilege to do all the actions he took, and was attacked. Everything else was ginned up by race hucksters and a rapacious press.

Right. I can follow anyone I want as long as it is in public. It doesn't give them the right to start beating my head against the ground.

 

[jamil]

You still haven't qualified "thug," unless you want to group a large majority of American youth in that category, regardless of race or socio-economic status.

Which photos, text messages are you referencing? Is there a text of him talking about doing a drive-by or a photo of him robbing a Quickie Mart, or something?

I thought my last post implied rather obviously what I think shows violent and criminal behaviors, which is essentially the "thug" qualifier. You've read the text transcripts and saw the photos. You know exactly what I'm talking about. You also know you won't find those kinds of photos and text conversations on the phones of "a large majority of American youth". So you can drop the false dichotomy bull**** and you can drop the insinuation of racial prejudice.

Way back when you first started this thread, back when the only story we heard was of the innocent black youth who was gunned down by a bigoted white, wannabe mall ninja, I agreed with you. I no longer agree with you because the facts no longer support that narrative.

The charge against Zimmerman is 2nd degree murder. Essentially he's charged with killing Martin out of hatred, though not premeditated. So do you think all the evidence available to the public today supports that charge? Do you think that the prosecution has the kind of evidence necessary to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt? I suspect that the facts don't matter because you made up your mind in the first post of this thread.

 

[printcraft]

Hey OP.... for your future consideration.... \/

 

[churchmouse]

That's possible, but Z wasnt a police officer, and T hadn't committed a crime. IMO Z actions led up confrontation. I said "led," not started. That we will never know. It's not out of the realm of possibilty that a hot headed teen would confront someone that they thought was following them. Who did "what," is the big mystery... and because that can't ever be known, I figure Z should probably avoid conviction. However, public perception of Zimmerman as a pariah, is well deserved.

I see your point in the eyes of "every thing is equal under the law" view point.
I guess all the idiots and zombies we have deterred from committing crimes and foolish actions were wrong as we are not LEO either.
Lost count of the confrontations and verbal exchanges with those who wonder about after dark in search of mischief and ill gotten gains.
Neighbors watching out for neighbors.
Z made some mistakes but so did T.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I thought my last post implied rather obviously what I think shows violent and criminal behaviors, which is essentially the "thug" qualifier. You've read the text transcripts and saw the photos. You know exactly what I'm talking about. You also know you won't find those kinds of photos and text conversations on the phones of "a large majority of American youth". So you can drop the false dichotomy bull**** and you can drop the insinuation of racial prejudice.

Way back when you first started this thread, back when the only story we heard was of the innocent black youth who was gunned down by a bigoted white, wannabe mall ninja, I agreed with you. I no longer agree with you because the facts no longer support that narrative.

The charge against Zimmerman is 2nd degree murder. Essentially he's charged with killing Martin out of hatred, though not premeditated. So do you think all the evidence available to the public today supports that charge? Do you think that the prosecution has the kind of evidence necessary to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt? I suspect that the facts don't matter because you made up your mind in the first post of this thread.

I have read no transcripts nor seen any photos that lend to T being a "thug," or showing any significant difference from any American teenager. I you care to share the links to what you are talking about, I would certainly take a look at them.

Secondly, I suspect that you haven't been paying attention to my posts. Yes, I've made up my mind that if Z had of stayed in his vehicle, T would be alive today. I fault him for putting into motion the event that eventually ended up with T's death. And I have stated repeatedly that there's not enough evidence, from what we know, to convict Z. T is dead, and Z life is ruined.... and I don't shy away from stating that a ruined public image is perfectly acceptable in my book.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I see your point in the eyes of "every thing is equal under the law" view point.
I guess all the idiots and zombies we have deterred from committing crimes and foolish actions were wrong as we are not LEO either.
Lost count of the confrontations and verbal exchanges with those who wonder about after dark in search of mischief and ill gotten gains.
Neighbors watching out for neighbors.
Z made some mistakes but so did T.

I agree 100%, mistakes were probably made by both, but one was a grown man, and the other a juvenile. One advised to police that he did believe the other was armed nor a threat to his person. One after recognizing a stranger following him, by vehicle, attempted to retreat from the situation. And of course, one is dead.

 

[churchmouse]

I have read no transcripts nor seen any photos that lend to T being a "thug," or showing any significant difference from any American teenager. I you care to share the links to what you are talking about, I would certainly take a look at them.

Secondly, I suspect that you haven't been paying attention to my posts. Yes, I've made up my mind that if Z had of stayed in his vehicle, T would be alive today. I fault him for putting into motion the event that eventually ended up with T's death. And I have stated repeatedly that there's not enough evidence, from what we know, to convict Z. T is dead, and Z life is ruined.... and I don't shy away from stating that a ruined public image is perfectly acceptable in my book.

Yes...Z screwed the pooch by following the person he suspected of possibly looking to do harm or steal.
I see someone wearing the uniform and I see them as a ranking member of whatever group they are representing. Dress like a thug, that is what I see.
Lurking/walking/standing/looking are just staggering I am watching.
Act really suspicious and I/we are following.

Semi-gated community.....profile does not fit....individual not recognized....LE notified...told to stay back....ignored because T was ducking in between houses....T bull rushes Z and commences to put a serious butt whipping on him. Not an action one would deem normal from a Non-thug.
Both of these guy's set things in motion that ended badly.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Yes...Z screwed the pooch by following the person he suspected of possibly looking to do harm or steal.
I see someone wearing the uniform and I see them as a ranking member of whatever group they are representing. Dress like a thug, that is what I see.
Lurking/walking/standing/looking are just staggering I am watching.
Act really suspicious and I/we are following.

Semi-gated community.....profile does not fit....individual not recognized....LE notified...told to stay back....ignored because T was ducking in between houses....T bull rushes Z and commences to put a serious butt whipping on him. Not an action one would deem normal from a Non-thug.
Both of these guy's set things in motion that ended badly.

Other than wearing a hoodie, while it was raining (which seems logical), I am unaware of the rest of T dress. That said, it's "jumping the gun to say he was dressed like a "thug."

And the second bolded part, hasn't been proven as fact, nor can evidence confirm that as being what happened. If it did happen, Z would say so, if it didn't happen Z still would say so.

 

[billybob44]

It would take "Big Bad John".....

"It doesn't give them the right to start beating my head against the ground."


Matt--It would take a GOOD sized guy to start beating YOUR head on the ground..HA HA..Bill..

 

[churchmouse]

I am to understand that a witness verify's the fight (one sided until Z shot him) but it has been a while and I could also have miss-understood. It was hard to get any real facts.
Also, the back of Z's head showed solid evidence that it was being slammed into the concrete.
Having dealt with the element we are discussing it is as much body language as the uniform.
Picking up my grand daughter from school today there were 2 young men walking the walk and dressed for the occasion. They caught my eye and I watched them from across the street. They split around the parked cars on the side street (my van was one of them) and tried every door handle as they strolled by until a very large gentlemen of color called them on it and they bolted.
Attitude/dress and other factors go into this. Profiling, maybe, wrong...not these days.

There are many ways to approach this and everyone of them is right in the eyes of the beholder. If you have suffered from the actions of these "THUG" you will see things far differently from someone who still does not recognize them.

It should be obvious from my posts that I am not one to put up with much from those who would do others harm for amusement or advancement.

 

[copperhead-1911]

If some groups do decide to riot with the gun laws and self defense laws ( when followed) in FLorida I have no doubt that there would be less tax burdens waiting for checks.

 

[griffin]

Is smoking pot considered a knock on a 17 year old high school student? And if so, how? Oh, and what "thug-like" behavior are you referring

Breaking and entering, possession of stolen women's jewelry and burglary tools, spray-painting graffiti, punching a bus driver in the face, multiple suspensions from school (he was on suspension when he was shot), paintballing cars, getting in fights (outside of his "fight club"), ...

And all of that is beside the prosecution's failed attempt to hide Trayvon's illegal handgun purchase.

 

[griffin]

if Z had of stayed in his vehicle, T would be alive today.

If Trayvon hadn't gotten suspended from school for a third time he'd be alive today.

If Trayvon hadn't attacked Zimmerman he'd be alive today.

Isn't it fun to play "what if?"

 

[griffin]

George Zimmerman Trial: Judge to weigh possible prosecutor sanctions post-trial - Crimesider - CBS News

Huh? Zimmerman's misconduct, concealing his defense fund from the court, was sanctioned IMMEDIATELY and harshly, with his bail being raised from $150K to $1M, and with his wife being arrested and charged with perjury.

But the prosecution's BLATANT misconduct has to wait til after the trial? WTF is that? Is that standard for prosecutorial misconduct in Florida?

 

[Bunnykid68]

I agree 100%, mistakes were probably made by both, but one was a grown man, and the other a juvenile. One advised to police that he did believe the other was armed nor a threat to his person. One after recognizing a stranger following him, by vehicle, attempted to retreat from the situation. And of course, one is dead.

When did he retreat? He regrouped and attacked a man and now he is dead for being a damned douche bag