Close contact shooting with an XD

[mettle]

So must we post pics of Glocks going kaboom? I'll stick with my Xd

You need to handgun I with Steve Fisher in June; and take your XD, you'll be in for treat! Or an eye opener, but either way!

 

[kingnereli]

You need to handgun I with Steve Fisher in June; and take your XD, you'll be in for treat! Or an eye opener, but either way!

Can you explain this further? Is this a reference to the claim that XDs jam every single time they're in a class?

 

[esrice]

Can you explain this further? Is this a reference to the claim that XDs jam every single time they're in a class?

I believe mettle was just referencing Steve's general disdain for the XD pistols, and the ration of crap he gives to their owners.

I think his reasoning was covered in the AAR from the YSINTG class.

Simplified:

• They've seen many failures in their classes.
• Grip safety that does not allow for some CQC shooting techniques or shooting from abnormal positions.

 

[mettle]

I believe mettle was just referencing Steve's general disdain for the XD pistols, and the ration of crap he gives to their owners.

I think his reasoning was covered in the AAR from the YSINTG class.

Simplified:

• They've seen many failures in their classes.
• Grip safety that does not allow for some CQC shooting techniques or shooting from abnormal positions.

let's nor forget grip safeties melting and locking the pistol up.... etc. etc.


That being said: Steve makes fun of everyone; so, whether you are shooting and laser gun or a Browning Buckmark, you'll be made fun of just as equally!
I am looking forward to it. I like being called 'Superhero' every five seconds and being mocked relentlessly.
Edit: I can almost hear Steve now...

 

[Agent 007]

For me, XDs suck for one reason. The grip safety. It is completely useless and unnecessary. If they didn't have that ridiculous device, I might even look into getting one, as the grip angle is good, and so is capacity. The bore axis is a little high, but I can deal with that. As for me, a grip safety that locks up the slide if not perfectly depressed during a high-stress lethal force encounter is a no-go for a defensive pistol. There's a reason why you don't see XDs in the holsters of many professionals.

Col. Jeff Cooper and John Browning both thought that grip safeties suck. Hard to argue with that kind of expertise:

jeff cooper's five facts of 1911 life: John Browning’s revolutionary semiautomatic pistol was still being used like a Colt six-shooter until Jeff Cooper came along. <--CLICK

There is one precaution. A high-thumb grip on a 1911 tends to lessen the pressure the web of your hand exerts on the grip safety. If the grip safety is not compressed far enough to disengage it, the gun won’t fire. This is obviously a potential calamity, and it is the reason John Browning did not specify a grip safety for the 1911. The government made him do it. The 1911’s grip safety was insisted upon by the US Army because some paranoid bureaucrat thought it might be a good idea. As a general rule, unnecessary and imperfect safety devices have an uncanny way not only of annoying people half to death but of actually killing more people than they protect, which is undoubtedly why the gunban-creatures lobby for their adoption. Some professional 1911 operators have been known to pin the grip safety to the frame in the down position, and some competitors tape it down for the duration of a match. Some manufacturers, notably Kimber, place a huge bulge on their grip safety so there is no way you can grip the gun in any kind of firing position without pressing the safety all the way down. You might remember that the pistol John Browning designed in 1935 without benefit of the US Army looking over his shoulder -– the estimable Browning High Power –- functions almost exactly like the 1911 in every way except one. There is no grip safety. - Col. Jeff Cooper

 

[kingnereli]

I believe mettle was just referencing Steve's general disdain for the XD pistols, and the ration of crap he gives to their owners.

I think his reasoning was covered in the AAR from the YSINTG class.

Simplified:

• They've seen many failures in their classes.
• Grip safety that does not allow for some CQC shooting techniques or shooting from abnormal positions.

That's an interesting point. Can you give me some examples as I haven't personally ran into this problem.

For me, XDs suck for one reason. The grip safety. It is completely useless and unnecessary. If they didn't have that ridiculous device, I might even look into getting one, as the grip angle is good, and so is capacity. The bore axis is a little high, but I can deal with that. As for me, a grip safety that locks up the slide if not perfectly depressed during a high-stress lethal force encounter is a no-go for a defensive pistol. There's a reason why you don't see XDs in the holsters of many professionals.

I feel the same way about using 47 different internal safeties to do the job that a single external safety does.

 

[mettle]

That's an interesting point. Can you give me some examples as I haven't personally ran into this problem.

It was explained and demonstrated that, (1911s are the same way) if in extreme close quarters, your muzzle contacts the bad guy and the slide goes out of battery, taking the thumb OFF the grip to use the thumb to push the slide back into battery, (this is all while trying to operate the pistol ONE handed)ALSO removes ALL ability to activate the grip safety. You must then bring your support/non shooting hand over to push the slide back into battery.

You basically have a two handed gun at that point.

That was one illustration. And, I feel it's a deal breaker on my carry pistol.

 

[esrice]

That's an interesting point. Can you give me some examples as I haven't personally ran into this problem.

It was explained and demonstrated that, (1911s are the same way) if in extreme close quarters, your muzzle contacts the bad guy and the slide goes out of battery, taking the thumb OFF the grip to use the thumb to push the slide back into battery, (this is all while trying to operate the pistol ONE handed)ALSO removes ALL ability to activate the grip safety. You must then bring your support/non shooting hand over to push the slide back into battery.

You basically have a two handed gun at that point.

That was one illustration. And, I feel it's a deal breaker on my carry pistol.

Here is a great picture illustration of the point, taken from this thread: https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...dfi_close_contact_shooting_pics_thoughts.html

Can

Can't

 

[kingnereli]

It was explained and demonstrated that, (1911s are the same way) if in extreme close quarters, your muzzle contacts the bad guy and the slide goes out of battery, taking the thumb OFF the grip to use the thumb to push the slide back into battery, (this is all while trying to operate the pistol ONE handed)ALSO removes ALL ability to activate the grip safety. You must then bring your support/non shooting hand over to push the slide back into battery.

You basically have a two handed gun at that point.

That was one illustration. And, I feel it's a deal breaker on my carry pistol.

Got it, that point escaped me as I'm not a fan of that technique regardless of the pistol design. Though, I suppose it is a valid concern.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Here is a great picture illustration of the point, taken from this thread: https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...dfi_close_contact_shooting_pics_thoughts.html

Can

Can't

Yes on several ocasions, I tend to shoot people who are behind me and I can not see them

 

[kingnereli]

Yes on several ocasions, I tend to shoot people who are behind me and I can not see them

I think it is incumbent upon low drag operators to base pistol preferences on obscure techniques.

Seriously though, I can imagine a scenario where a BG is behind you when your gun is already in your hand and has you grasped in such a way that you can't turn around or rotate your hips, though your gun hand is free enough to contort around to the rear as pictured and you can't get a shot off until you are pressing the slide out of battery and you would need to fire your pistol in such a way as to ensure that it doesn't cycle. It's possible, I suppose, and as such is a valid point. How likely...

It is most likely that rear bear-hug type of attack will be the initial one while your gun is still holstered. It will be difficult to bring the pistol into action (unless you carry cross-draw) if the arms are pinned. Defense, in this case, will likely have to be unarmed or the knife you keep positioned for just such an occurrence.

 

[esrice]

I think it is incumbent upon low drag operators to base pistol preferences on obscure techniques.

I prefer the term "no snag".

 

[mettle]

Yes on several ocasions, I tend to shoot people who are behind me and I can not see them

It can also be applied to a forward aggressor, but I think I get your humor.

When do you shoot the bad guy behind you, when you are in Batman mode?

 

[cce1302]

Yes on several ocasions, I tend to shoot people who are behind me and I can not see them

...while pushing hard enough on my target to get my slide out of battery


....with my thumb in a position that will probably break it (or at least put me in some kind of pain) if I actually shoot.

 

[esrice]

....with my thumb in a position that will probably break it (or at least put me in some kind of pain) if I actually shoot.

Ever tried it? It's a common misconception that shooting like that will cause injury or pain.

But, it's just physics.

If you are holding the slide forward, the only force your thumb needs to overcome is recoil (minimal). Because you are not allowing the slide to move, there is no momentum to overcome, which could injure or cause pain.

Try it. You can even use your other hand the first time, if it makes you more comfortable.

 

[mettle]

I prefer the term "no snag".

What is THAT?!?! You know, some of you mods, and some serious posting members must have a secret hard drive with 'just the perfect pic to make just the right statement at just the right time' pics in it and nothing more. How big is that drive 500 gig? You guys are like quickdraw McGraw with statement pics! Rawhide!

 

[mettle]

...while pushing hard enough on my target to get my slide out of battery


....with my thumb in a position that will probably break it (or at least put me in some kind of pain) if I actually shoot.

I've done it and Steve also demonstrated it with several times as well. It's not what you think.

 

[esrice]

How big is that drive 500 gig?

I honestly have no idea how big Google Image Search is.

 

[cce1302]

I've done it and Steve also demonstrated it with several times as well. It's not what you think.

Ok you got me on that one, but I still don't see the point in pushing against someone hard enough to push my slide out of battery just so I can use my thumb to put it back into battery and cause a FTE in order to show how 1911s are worthless handguns.

Reminds me of the argument against the Beretta 92 that starts out with "jackie chan took one of those apart in Rush Hour..."

 

[esrice]

Ok you got me on that one, but I still don't see the point in pushing against someone hard enough to push my slide out of battery just so I can use my thumb to put it back into battery and cause a FTE in order to show how 1911s are worthless handguns.

The technique is not taught as something preferable, but rather a method to use if you were in a situation that required it. If you can shoot 'normally', then do it. But there are times when you may find yourself with a 200lb. gorilla on top of you, and trying to shoot him pushes your slide out of battery. This is a technique that can overcome that and still allow you to make 1 shot.

Remember, we train for the worse scenarios, not the best.