Dirty 45 ACP - black snowflakes from hell

[RoyalTenenbaum]

[STRIKE]So I am sitting there having a good time popping a few rounds into some soda cans practicing aim and trigger pull. All of a sudden it starts snowing black flakes. It may just be a funky lot, I hope, as I bought 5 boxes of reloads made by a company that rhymes with recession partridge. Don't naming names, like I said, it may just be a lame bunch and I have another 200 rounds before I pass final judgement. Anyone else have this problem? Couldn't manage to hit the broadside of a barn with it either. [/STRIKE]

This ammo worked perfectly, I think I was colorblind and had the shakes because I had just seen Manbearpig. It has come to light that I may have a temporary colorblindness condition whose an-acronym is DILLIGAS. I encourage you to look it up. As it turns out Manbearpig excretes purple snowflakes which look black to those of us whose fear reaction is momentary colorblindness instead of the usual fight or flight mechanism. Though I wasn't able to snap a photo, I have provided this drawing as proof of the encounter.

 

[steif]

loads

I have no experience with that company, so can't help there.
I used to load 45 with unique, and it acted the same way.. But I liked it because it was cheap to use. I switched to bullseye and liked it a lot better, cleaner burning.
I had unique not burn completely and created the same you describe, as to the accuracy, I was able to load my own cast bullets and hit most everything I was aiming at, but not all. I took it as a sign to plink with my 45 loads, so that I was more familiar with the gun.
If the powder is not burning consistently, it will cause a loss of accuracy. This might be the root cause of both of the problems. It could be the ammo was subject to high humidity or poor storage before you got it, or the powder was bad when they loaded it.

 

[RoyalTenenbaum]

There is a clearly inconsistent burn going on. It is still perfectly good for linking at the price I paid. Heck of a deal.

I have to say I got this ammo from Indiana Supply Depot at the FW gun show. Very shortly after my initial post the owner Cwood pm'ed me immediately with an offer of exchange. Talk about hella good customer service. He was a pleasure to deal with at the show, and I really look forward to buying from him again! Four thumbs up.

 

[ghitch75]

there loaded to light....incomplete burn....

 

[Skip]

This problem goes away if you reload your own! Then you can really fix it! Just sayin!

 

[Josh Ward]

there loaded to light....incomplete burn....

^^^This^^^

 

[thompal]

there loaded to light....incomplete burn....

I'm not too sure about it being a light load. I'm still going through some WWII issue stuff (1943 manuf.) that leaves unburnt tiny discs of powder, and it is far from a light load. It's far snappier than any modern commercial ammo I've used.

 

[ghitch75]

I'm not too sure about it being a light load. I'm still going through some WWII issue stuff (1943 manuf.) that leaves unburnt tiny discs of powder, and it is far from a light load. It's far snappier than any modern commercial ammo I've used.

more just incomplete burn.....heavy load will do the same.....you have to find a happy weight of powder to get a complete burn.....4.0gr of Unique will leave unburnet powder but 4.5gr won't...there where most likely loaded with Bullseye and is hard to get a complete burn at that low pressure....military ammo was know for leavin' a lot behind and dirty...

 

[slow1911s]

Crimp could also be an issue. Unburnt powder is mostly a pressure problem. Titlegroup, for example, will leave a lot more unburnt powder with lighter heads. This is common with a lot of the fast pistol and shotgun powders.

The company you mention used 231/HP-38 in their 45s when I shot them. You might ask them. They have always been very reasonable when I've dealt with them.

 

[bulletbaron]

Loading Informatiion!

Having read the complaint by this individual, I would have preferred he contact me directly so I could convey the information below to him, but since he posted it on the INGO Forum, now everyone will get the details.

So..........if I may post the information pertaining to this situation.

As for the powder charge, at the moment we are using TITEGROUP (SMP 242), dropping a charge weight of 5.1 to 5.2 grains and the manual supplied to me by St Marks Powder (the producer of this powder) shows for a 230 grain jacketed bullet a starting load of 4.9 grains (830 f.p.s.) and a maximum load of 5.3 grains (875 f.p.s.).Obviously NOT a light or heavy load.

Concerning the crimp issue, this same manual shows a case mouth diameter of a loaded round at .473 inches and taking a round directly out of our CAMDEX Loader, I get .471 inches. Again, obviously within specifications.

Now, as for " Couldn't manage to hit the broadside of a barn with it either."

Surprisingly members of the Gary, Indiana Police S.W.A.T. Team and their Chief went to a GLOCK Law Enforcement Training Seminar a few weeks ago which also had various forms of competition between the attending departments, and they returned with various awards & prizes, including one officer winning a GLOCK pistol. AND, they took the same exact "lot" of ammunition with them and had no complaints of inaccuracy or "snowflakes from hell"

So, let me make this offer to RoyalTenenbaum, please return the unfired rounds to Chris Wood and he will give you a COMPLETE refund for all five boxes and all I ask is that he purchases ammunition from other sources since I believe his expectations of quality reloaded ammunition are unattainable by myself and my company.

 

[Aszerigan]

Every ammunition manufacturer has their issues now and again - I'll admit that I've had mine too. The mark of a good company is immediately offering an exchange and/or refund, and quickly trying to remedy the problem.

+1 for Cwood at ISD for doing what he did. He's taking care of his customers and that's rare in this day and age.

 

[RoyalTenenbaum]

Having read the complaint by this individual, I would have preferred he contact me directly so I could convey the information below to him, but since he posted it on the INGO Forum, now everyone will get the details.

So..........if I may post the information pertaining to this situation.

As for the powder charge, at the moment we are using TITEGROUP (SMP 242), dropping a charge weight of 5.1 to 5.2 grains and the manual supplied to me by St Marks Powder (the producer of this powder) shows for a 230 grain jacketed bullet a starting load of 4.9 grains (830 f.p.s.) and a maximum load of 5.3 grains (875 f.p.s.).Obviously NOT a light or heavy load.

Concerning the crimp issue, this same manual shows a case mouth diameter of a loaded round at .473 inches and taking a round directly out of our CAMDEX Loader, I get .471 inches. Again, obviously within specifications.

Now, as for " Couldn't manage to hit the broadside of a barn with it either."

Surprisingly members of the Gary, Indiana Police S.W.A.T. Team and their Chief went to a GLOCK Law Enforcement Training Seminar a few weeks ago which also had various forms of competition between the attending departments, and they returned with various awards & prizes, including one officer winning a GLOCK pistol. AND, they took the same exact "lot" of ammunition with them and had no complaints of inaccuracy or "snowflakes from hell"

So, let me make this offer to RoyalTenenbaum, please return the unfired rounds to Chris Wood and he will give you a COMPLETE refund for all five boxes and all I ask is that he purchases ammunition from other sources since I believe his expectations of quality reloaded ammunition are unattainable by myself and my company.

Bulletbaron: I am pleased to hear that others have found your ammunition to be exemplary. It pleases me to hear that members of the Gary PD have a exercise a certain prowess when using your product. The second box fired was as expected, fired clean, and hit the targets indicating that I can indeed hit the broad side of the barn as well as empty soda cans at approximately 30 feet. My comments addressed my concerns, and relayed experience with one box out of a purchased 5 box lot. My experience with that first box was shot from the same firearm in the same location under the same circumstances with the same magazines at the same cans with the same hand and the same trigger finger. The flakes were at times 2-3 millimeters resembling fish food flakes colored black, the cans remained in place with bullets impacting the berm indicating high shots each time.

A refund is not what I sought by posting, nor do I request one. Should I cross paths with the retailer at a future gun show, I will return the unused portion of the box in question for exchange as exchange by parcel would result in unnecessary expense for both of us.

Let me reitterate, the problem I experienced was with reloads from one box. Another box from the same re-manufacturer performed as anticipated.

 

[bulletbaron]

Defective Ammunition????????????

As I stated in an earlier reply, I would prefer that Royal Tannenbaum cease using my ammunition, return it for a full refund and purchase ammunition from another source. I am totally amazed that one box of 50 rounds can be so dirty with "snowflakes from hell" ????? and inaccurate and the next box being clean & within customers expectations of accuracy, especially when this seems so far to be the only 50 round box out of a 50,000 round "run" in which the same "lot" of powder was used, the same "lot" of CCI Large Pistol primers and the same "lot" of "X-TREME" bullets were used. In my 25 years of producing reloaded ammunition I have never encountered such a scenario and would feel much better if this individual would go elsewhere for his ammunition needs.

 

[Skip]

I have no idea how one box can be one way and another one from the same lot, completely different. That being said, I have had lots of ammuniton, I make my own and have for quite a few years, the only new ammo I have bought in the last 5 years was so I could have the cases for some new obscure project (357Sig & 7.62X54R) but I have had the snowflakes thing go on just the same.

It was caused by an undercharge, well, a light load from a new manual, of Herco and 230gr LRN cast by myself. So, in the case of my horrible reloads, I simply shot them up, kept my mouth closed, brought the cases home and stopped using Herco in "target type" loads. Problem solved and I stood behind my product! Of course, I "sold" it to myself and yelled at myself and demanded a refund from myself!


Really fellas, the reputation of a good company is not going to depend on .1% of any run of anything.

And, as for not hitting the broad side of the barn, I have seen folks take a Springfield TRP, oh, about a $1300 gun the last time I checked, and litterally couldn't hit a plastic 55 gallon drum @ 50'. Now, I took his gun, same day, same ammo, same target, same everything but the shooter and had a 1" group @ 25 yards from a rest. Tomorrow may be a totally different day and I might not be able to hit the broad side of a barrel, kinda doubt it even with the WORST 45ACP ammo, but hey, we are just talking here....................

 

[Skip]

p.s. Titegroup is not going to go in ANY of the ammo supplied to me by "Skip's Ammo"
Best used as a fertilizer regardless of who uses it for what.

 

[RoyalTenenbaum]

Really fellas, the reputation of a good company is not going to depend on .1% of any run of anything.

+1 skip

Bulletbaron: At the expense of sounding repetitious. Since the ammo is mine, I will keep the part of which performs satisfactorily. The unfired portion of the box that I found defective, I will exchange with the retailer when next I see him. I understand that you wish for me to return all of it, however it is mine to do with as I wish. I wish to keep the non defective portion of my purchase.

Many manufacturers would take pride in a defect rate of .1%, I am sure Toyota would find that an envious achievement. However, making a mountain out of a complaint about a single box of ammunition will sully a good image. Clearly there are no other complaints, not least of which I went out of the way to state that the rest of the ammo I bought from the same manufacturer was working just fine. Suffice it to say I will have no problem skipping past your brand in the future; not because I found one box unsatisfactory. I will be skipping because your interest clearly is not in a satisfied returning customer rather it lies in driving the customer away all the while insinuating the customer is wrong or incapable of properly using the product.

 

[slimplmbr]

I find this a very weird thread. I would be upset at the problem had I experienced the same thing. Although I think I would have not mentioned the company name (or rhyming counterparts) and contacted Cwood first. Cwood seems to have handled this situation to RT's satisfaction, bulletbaron's reaction confuses me. I have never seen a company owner that would come on an open forum and basically berate and turn down a customer, except for RYP of DPx Gear. I understand its upsetting when someone says something bad about your product or work, but don't make yourself look worse and "go off" on a potential return customer(s), as I know I will not buy anymore of said product due to the owner's reaction. Just my $.02.

 

[bulletbaron]

If you want to keep the ammunition, there is nothing I can do about that, other than I did with a offer to buy it all back. I went out of my way to try and satisfy a unhappy customer, and now out of the clear blue sky, you tell me the other boxes are okay and you will keep them. How do you know that box # 3 or box # 4 or box # 5 will not have the same "black snowflakes from hell" and be inaccurate enough where you can't hit a barn?????????????????

To be total honest with you and some of the other members of this Forum, it amazes me that out of a run 50,000 rounds, you have the bad luck to purchase the only box of "bad" ammo with a scenario that I have not had in 25 years of producing well over 60 MILLION rounds of ammunition. Other members talk about "light" loads or "incorrect" crimp, all not knowing what the hell they are talking about since they do not know the facts nor the loading data let alone even seeing this "defective" ammunition!!!!!!!

You talk about the poor customer service I am offering with a mention of insinuating you are; wrong or incapable of properly using the product.

Well, let me say this since I am through with dealing with you after this reply, to come out of no where with "black snowflakes out of hell" is just unbelievable that any one with any intelligence would make such a statement. How can you put into writing that these "black snowflakes" and "can't hit the side of a barn" onto a Forum where you know I will read them sooner or later and then after being called out, find the remaining 4 boxes acceptable to your expectations. And then to call yourself a "satisfied customer" after complaining as you did, I find very amusing to say he least. So, needless to say I am glad you will no longer purchase my ammunition from Chris, I am just sorry that you did not have the courtesy to return the remainder as I had asked.

I am just hoping that the Moderators close this thread since after this response, I think & hope all on the INGO Forum know where I stand on your criticism of my product!

I shall not lower myself to respond to anything more you may say since I have already concluded what type of person you are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ghitch75]

Other members talk about "light" loads or "incorrect" crimp, all not knowing what the hell they are talking about since they do not know the facts nor the loading data let alone even seeing this "defective" ammunition!!!!!!!

oh i know what i'm talkin' about......i was just tellin' the OP what i thought the trouble was......wasn't dissin' anyones stuff or attackin' anyone.....you need to settle down...

 

[308jake]

Wow. Slim is right....this thread is strange indeed. Op was explaining his experience with a certain product and admitted Cwood rectified the problem. Then here comes BB acting like a complete tool. Don't bring your feelings to work BB....they will get hurt. I shot some of your ammo yesterday after a friend said it performed faulty at NFA Day out a full auto uzi. It did great out of my KelTec 2000. Things happen and no one is perfect, but your attitude makes it easy for me to buy ammo elsewhere despite the good results I experienced.