You are not an operator

[60Driver]

Excellent Article, and one that I think many instructors and students would do well to read.

Many times I have seen the merits of "Tactical/Military" skills vs. "Competition" vs. "Self Defense" Debated by experienced folks here. At the end of the day many of the skills transfer, but clearly some do not. In the same light many of the instructional skills transfer and many do not.

While I am a neophyte pistol instructor, possessing only the aforemention NRA Cert, I do have more than a passing familiarity with teaching people to employ weapons systems in harms way. At the high end of the aviation game being a great Combat Aviator does not make you a great Weapons Instructor Pilot. And guess what, we select based not only on ability to fight the airplane, but also how well you TEACH AT THE APPROPRIATE LEVEL and APPROPRIATE TACTICS. Additionally a great deal of time is spent training and yes testing IP's AS Instructors. I was also lucky enough to be exposed to the guys who utilize small arms as their primary means of doing business and their instructors are ALSO selected and Trained as Instructors.

This then is what makes a good instructor in my humble opinion, be able to teach the RIGHT SKILS in the RIGHT WAY for the level of student that are APPROPRIATE to their needs. Sometimes this may mean telling a Student that they would be better served by taking a self defense based course offered by someone else instead of Advanced Door Kicker Team Tactics 350. That is Integrity on the part of an instructor and something I know many of our instructors here practice.

As for Space Shuttle Door Gunners, yeah some guys get pretty close to that qual

 

[Southbendfamily]

Does that other guy have a Xbox controller in his hands.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

One thing college did for me was to inoculate me from expectation regarding instructors.

I have taken classes taught by heads of departments who were not fit to carry their AI's books and I have taken classes taught by world renowned experts who were humble and brilliant. Unless I have an opinion on the instructor/school from someone who's opinion I value, it's a crap shoot, total crap shoot. Buy your ticket, take your chances.

Another thing I got from college was I learned to take classes just because they sound neat. Even the classes I took which were taught my miserable educators taught me something. Everything teaches you something.


So, yeah, certs or no certs, I choose my classes based on recommendations from people who's opinion I value (upcoming TR fighting rifle), what I think is likely to be practical and helpful (I look forward to taking mindset lab's intro to FOF), and things I think look like fun (suarez guerrilla sniper looms down the road).

Badges?

 

[TheAutomator]

I'm leary of ANYONE thats wants to teach me something when that person has a large profit motive behind them.These so called "trainers" all jump up and down about how their not getting rich off these classes but basic math is basic math.$500 to $1000 per class times 15-20 people is no small chunk of change.Multiply that by how many different course offerings they offer in a given month and IMHO somebody is getting over somewhere.I've read and heard these "trainers" say their not getting rich well then I guess the money just vanishes like a fart in the wind.Even with expenses and overhead I think people need to be aware that some of these people are preying on peoples fears and emotions just to earn a buck.

**** you.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I'm leary of ANYONE thats wants to teach me something when that person has a large profit motive behind them.These so called "trainers" all jump up and down about how their not getting rich off these classes but basic math is basic math.$500 to $1000 per class times 15-20 people is no small chunk of change.Multiply that by how many different course offerings they offer in a given month and IMHO somebody is getting over somewhere.I've read and heard these "trainers" say their not getting rich well then I guess the money just vanishes like a fart in the wind.Even with expenses and overhead I think people need to be aware that some of these people are preying on peoples fears and emotions just to earn a buck.

You stopped too soon. Take your numbers stretched out over a year. They are not going to have a class a week, they spend significantly on facility costs, ammunition to maintain their own proficiency, and wear and tear on weapons. How much of the cost of the course goes to expendable supplies that are part of the deal? How many staff are on the payroll? Are they spending on debt service for starting the business?

There is no business in the universe impervious to disreputable participants, but you have taken too small a set of data and extrapolated far too much from it.

 

[HICKMAN]

me thinks Caleb is a fan

http://youtu.be/aafh7KpwADg



http://youtu.be/7VLVNClEeuU

 

[BehindBlueI's]

When did "operators" cease being ladies who charged you a nominal fee to place a telephone call and become elite warriors?

Anyway, I've said this elsewhere but it definitely fits here. Doing what "operators" do when you aren't one can get you killed. Its unlikely you have the requisite level of training and talent, like the guy who goes to the martial arts instructor and wants to "just learn a few moves" instead of learning the fundamentals and building on them. Even if you are that good, you don't have the team of equally skilled teammates at your disposal. You can't break cover and rely on teammates, even though its a faster way to engage the enemy. You can't count on someone else to have your flank while you concentrate on your own fight.

Think of it like this. If you're fighting as a centurion in a shield wall or you're fighting as a fencer, the tactics you use are different. They may both be swordsmen, but they are preparing for a very different way of fighting. When preparing for a self defense shooting, you're the fencer and doing what the centurion does will get you killed. If you're the centurion, fighting like a fencer will disrupt the team and get you all killed. Know which you are, and prepare accordingly.

 

[IndyDave1776]

When did "operators" cease being ladies who charged you a nominal fee to place a telephone call and become elite warriors?

Anyway, I've said this elsewhere but it definitely fits here. Doing what "operators" do when you aren't one can get you killed. Its unlikely you have the requisite level of training and talent, like the guy who goes to the martial arts instructor and wants to "just learn a few moves" instead of learning the fundamentals and building on them. Even if you are that good, you don't have the team of equally skilled teammates at your disposal. You can't break cover and rely on teammates, even though its a faster way to engage the enemy. You can't count on someone else to have your flank while you concentrate on your own fight.

Think of it like this. If you're fighting as a centurion in a shield wall or you're fighting as a fencer, the tactics you use are different. They may both be swordsmen, but they are preparing for a very different way of fighting. When preparing for a self defense shooting, you're the fencer and doing what the centurion does will get you killed. If you're the centurion, fighting like a fencer will disrupt the team and get you all killed. Know which you are, and prepare accordingly.

Great post! I had to quote it so that anyone skimming the thread who may have missed it will see it again!

 

[jblomenberg16]

I did get a good laugh from the space shuttle door gunner joke. That is one of the quintessential gun forum monikers out there! That, and the Tier 4 operator (Land, Air, Sea, Space), and so on.

As most have posted, there is some great truths in the referenced articles.

1) We have great access to training

2) Training can be lots of fun, especially the more "dynamic" stuff. I'd venture to say that a lot of us grew up playing army guys in the back yard, back woods, etc. For those of us that didn't commit to Uncle Sam and to this country to do it for real, we get to try it out for the low low price of $199.95.


My wife and I have both taken some courses that are geared more closely to practical than tactical, and all have been from INGO instructors. In each class we've picked up some valuable tools on how to be better "operators" with our "weapons systems" when it comes to defending ourselves and our family. We are better shooters than we were before, and we actually enjoy shooting together (one of the few recreational things we do have in common).

Additionally, and most importantly, we both have confidence in each other that if the stuff really does hit the fan, we know the other will not go run and hide in fear for their life, but rather be willing to employ their skills as needed for the situation.

We know how to use our weapons, clear malfunctions, and even slice the pie if we have to while using our weapon lights intermittently to disorient an intruder. But, if there is a stationary zombie silhouette at 7 yards that needs blasting, we can do that too.

 

[Aaron1776]

When did "operators" cease being ladies who charged you a nominal fee to place a telephone call and become elite warriors?

Anyway, I've said this elsewhere but it definitely fits here. Doing what "operators" do when you aren't one can get you killed. Its unlikely you have the requisite level of training and talent, like the guy who goes to the martial arts instructor and wants to "just learn a few moves" instead of learning the fundamentals and building on them. Even if you are that good, you don't have the team of equally skilled teammates at your disposal. You can't break cover and rely on teammates, even though its a faster way to engage the enemy. You can't count on someone else to have your flank while you concentrate on your own fight.

Think of it like this. If you're fighting as a centurion in a shield wall or you're fighting as a fencer, the tactics you use are different. They may both be swordsmen, but they are preparing for a very different way of fighting. When preparing for a self defense shooting, you're the fencer and doing what the centurion does will get you killed. If you're the centurion, fighting like a fencer will disrupt the team and get you all killed. Know which you are, and prepare accordingly.

Well if we're gonna get all historical. The term "operator" came about when they were trying to figure out what to call these black ops ninjas that they had created in Delta Force in the late 70s. "Operative" wasn't used because it was a spy term, and they definitely weren't spies. Somehow they landed on "Operator".
The funny part is that before the term became common knowledge, people actually DID mistake the guys calling themselves "operators" as people who worked with telephones. This was fine, as it helped disguise their actual jobs.

But your point was 100% valid and what I was trying to reach earlier. It's way easier/ cooler to kill your opponent when you have a fire team laying down suppressive fire and he's pinned down, or when you've flash banged the room and gone in hard and fast with a team....but it's also useless to you unless you roll four guys deep wherever you go. While those skills are fun, we're really only ever going to get to use them in paintball or airsoft. If we want to be serious about training, we need to be going more "gun figher" and less "operator", and learning about individual fighting tactics.

Generally I like to learn about weapons manipulation from top military guys as they were forced to do it for years and know it backwards and forwards, and I like to learn tactics from cops/civilians since their stuff is far more applicable to me. Obviously I'll learn both from either if they're a good teacher and be better off for it.

 

[N8RV]

... It's way easier/ cooler to kill your opponent when you have a fire team laying down suppressive fire and he's pinned down, or when you've flash banged the room and gone in hard and fast with a team....but it's also useless to you unless you roll four guys deep wherever you go. While those skills are fun, we're really only ever going to get to use them in paintball or airsoft. If we want to be serious about training, we need to be going more "gun figher" and less "operator", and learning about individual fighting tactics ....

And that's another point worth emphasizing -- what's the goal of your training? Sometimes the training is just for FUN.

There are great instructors for learning weapons manipulation, just as there are excellent instructors for honing accuracy. However, there are also instructors whose whole program is geared toward the wannabe operators. Face it -- a lot of us grew up playing "war" or "army" in our back yards as kids, and never fired a shot in anger. It's not that we're war mongers, but it's no different from other fantasy camps for other skills that most of us will never experience.

As a pilot, I would LOVE to know the thrill of aerial combat of WWII. It will never happen. The closest I'll ever get would be to pay for a ride in a P-51 Mustang. Or pay to fly in simulated aerial combat with one of the many companies that hire ex-military Top Gun-types to keep me from hurting myself as I live out a Walter Mitty fantasy for a day, learning maneuvers like "yo-yos" and "scissors" that I'll never, ever do in my plane.

Taking a fantasy aerial combat course wouldn't make me a dangerous pilot, but would actually make me better -- as long as I know my limitations and do not exceed them when I don't have that Top Gun instructor sitting behind me.

Similarly, taking a weekend "operator" course can let me live a life that I'll never know (sans the whole being-shot-at-and-could-die-thing, naturally), and as long as I don't go to the range and try to impress everybody with my new operator status, life goes back to normal and the skills that I learned -- while never actually needing to use them in combat of any sort -- can still make me a better and safer shooter.

I don't need to take an operator course. Someday I may. But for others who want to experience that edge of danger -- even if only simulated -- I say, "Go for it!" as long as it's done safely.

Oh, and those videos are HILARIOUS!

 

[shooter521]

it's also useless to you unless you roll four guys deep wherever you go.

That clinches it... I need an entourage.

 

[Coach]

That clinches it... I need an entourage.

I think an entourage would get in the way more times than not. Unless they were about 25 and very fit, and curvy in the right way.

 

[lovemachine]

I think an enourage would get in the way more times than not. Unless they were about 25 and very fit, and curvy in the right way.

Well, that leaves out rhino.

 

[rhino]

I'm leary of ANYONE thats wants to teach me something when that person has a large profit motive behind them.These so called "trainers" all jump up and down about how their not getting rich off these classes but basic math is basic math.$500 to $1000 per class times 15-20 people is no small chunk of change.Multiply that by how many different course offerings they offer in a given month and IMHO somebody is getting over somewhere.I've read and heard these "trainers" say their not getting rich well then I guess the money just vanishes like a fart in the wind.Even with expenses and overhead I think people need to be aware that some of these people are preying on peoples fears and emotions just to earn a buck.

Yeah. So, who is filling classes with 15-20 people at $500 to $1000? Certainly not us, especially not right now.

I'm sure some are, but I'll also bet their overhead is enormous as well.

 

[rhino]

HOLY CRAP!!! That's me with long hair!

 

[Coach]

Well, that leaves out rhino.

It leaves him out in every possible way.

 

[riverman67]

Well, that leaves out rhino.

It leaves him out in every possible way.

Rhino you can be in my entourage.
I mean where else can you find cover and concealment with the ability to shoot back.

 

[ol' Huff]

Appleseed is doing a distance clinic at Atterbury where the ammo is provided by WPA, the instructors are all volunteers, and all of the instructors have to pass a competency test requiring them to fire expert on the Army Qualification Test (the one from the 40's which Major Thomas Erhart acknowledges as way harder than the current iteration) multiple times each year, sometimes in front of a crowd. All items must be carried and its a rain or shine event.

If you are worried about instructor profit margin, this is for you. They don't get paid nuthin.

If you are worried about price, its $80 for dudes, $40 for chicks, $20 for kids and active duty LEO and military are free. The range fee at CAJMTC is ten bucks a day. For $100 bucks WPA is giving you $200 of ammo, its like they're paying you to shoot.

If you are worried about instructor competency or knowledge they are all experts and required to prove it.

If you are worried about their teaching techniques their training guru did his graduate work in curriculum theory at IU (insert obligatory IU/Purdue joke....wait for it...here) and he pushes them pretty hard.

If you are worried about whether or not it is tough enough, its two days of you carrying all the gear you bring all the time, no benchrest, no bipod, no sandbags, to see whether or not that Molle gear really holds up or if those 5.11 pants breath better than Mountain Khakis.

Ten spots left. It ain't operator school, its Rifleman school. Appleseed Schedule