You are not an operator

[Popeye81]

I'm leary of ANYONE thats wants to teach me something when that person has a large profit motive behind them.These so called "trainers" all jump up and down about how their not getting rich off these classes but basic math is basic math.$500 to $1000 per class times 15-20 people is no small chunk of change.Multiply that by how many different course offerings they offer in a given month and IMHO somebody is getting over somewhere.I've read and heard these "trainers" say their not getting rich well then I guess the money just vanishes like a fart in the wind.Even with expenses and overhead I think people need to be aware that some of these people are preying on peoples fears and emotions just to earn a buck.

 

[Scutter01]

I'm leary of ANYONE thats wants to teach me something when that person has a large profit motive behind them.These so called "trainers" all jump up and down about how their not getting rich off these classes but basic math is basic math.$500 to $1000 per class times 15-20 people is no small chunk of change.Multiply that by how many different course offerings they offer in a given month and IMHO somebody is getting over somewhere.I've read and heard these "trainers" say their not getting rich well then I guess the money just vanishes like a fart in the wind.Even with expenses and overhead I think people need to be aware that some of these people are preying on peoples fears and emotions just to earn a buck.

I'm unclear on how the desire to earn a living is at odds with one's ability to be a competent and effective instructor. We have lots of people who espouse the American capitalist way of life that one should be free to earn as much or as little money as he is capable of, but the moment someone does, he is accused of profiteering.

Is the problem that they are earning too much money? How much (or how little) should they earn before you are happy with their training ability?

 

[esrice]

I would buy the crap out of that morale patch.

Your wish, sire.

MilSpec Monkey Shuttle Door Gunner Patch

 

[Popeye81]

I'm unclear on how the desire to earn a living is at odds with one's ability to be a competent and effective instructor. We have lots of people who espouse the American capitalist way of life that one should be free to earn as much or as little money as he is capable of, but the moment someone does, he is accused of profiteering.

Is the problem that they are earning too much money? How much (or how little) should they earn before you are happy with their training ability?

I am a "Call a Spade a Spade" type of guy.There is NOTHING WRONG WITH EARNING A PROFIT...LARGE OR SMALL.It's when people dance around the subject of profit or try and lead people to believe that they aren't making a profit that I have a problem with.I've seen "training" and "schools" pop up in other areas of interest of mine(IT,Manufacturing etc) and it always sort of plays out the same.In the end you will have people drawn to try and make a profit off of something that they really don't have any business trying to teach someone else how to do...The old saying of "Those that can ,DO...Those that can't,TEACH" comes to mind when it comes to alot of the firearms training that seems to be springing up.

 

[Scutter01]

Your wish, sire.

MilSpec Monkey Shuttle Door Gunner Patch

Done. I love their stuff and LAPG hasn't had an order from me in awhile.

Thank you for your order. Please print this page for your records. If there are any delays in shipping or problems with your order we will contact you via e-mail.

 

[Que]

I am a "Call a Spade a Spade" type of guy.There is NOTHING WRONG WITH EARNING A PROFIT...LARGE OR SMALL.It's when people dance around the subject of profit or try and lead people to believe that they aren't making a profit that I have a problem with.I've seen "training" and "schools" pop up in other areas of interest of mine(IT,Manufacturing etc) and it always sort of plays out the same.In the end you will have people drawn to try and make a profit off of something that they really don't have any business trying to teach someone else how to do...The old saying of "Those that can ,DO...Those that can't,TEACH" comes to mind when it comes to alot of the firearms training that seems to be springing up.

Can you specifically identify which trainer(s) you are referencing?

The reason some have started their own training company is because they didn't like what they were seeing in the market and figured they could do it better. Others just like the opportunity of passing on some abilities they have learned over the years. I'm seeing more and more gun stores opening, but the truth about anything is, if people don't want it, they will soon go out of business. People still have the ability to vote with their wallets.

 

[Sgtusmc]

I read both articles and I totally see where the author is coming from. Still something deep inside kinda took offense. It felt like the author was invalidating my training, skills and experience as a combat Marine for the sake of boosting civilian instructors without my type of experience.

I'm not an instructor, nor have I ever considered myself an operator in the Hollywood sense of the word. That said, there is a considerable amount of information I could pass on if I were to be put into a teaching position by necessity.

Operator camps seem to be just re-purposed from the regular weekend warrior camps or SEAL for a week end type of camps. Guys who never joined the military do these camps usually and walk away feeling like a bad ass minus the psychological damage of having truly survived life threatening events that pushed their mind and body to the very limit.

Perceived qualifications are only relative to what is being taught. It takes longer than a week end or even a week to take someone out of their element to see how a trainee would operate under elevated levels of stress. Much of what it takes to survive a situation is psychological.

I'm not saying every trainer who's a veteran should be held in higher regards as a trainer without military experience. I just feel slighted by the article.

Edit: yes, my tag under my member name says "smooth operator". It is a joke, not a claim to operator badassness.

 

[esrice]

I read both articles and I totally see where the author is coming from. Still something deep inside kinda took offense. It felt like the author was invalidating my training, skills and experience as a combat Marine for the sake of boosting civilian instructors without my type of experience.

I can see where you came to that conclusion, but I don't think that was the focus or intent of the author.

The main points I took away were:

• We need to be honest with ourselves as to why we take the type of training we do
• We need to train realistically for our actual lives and not the lives we wished we lived
• We need to keep the above two things in mind when selecting a trainer/school

For example, I like shooting my AR. It's fun. I can make hits faster and at greater distances than I can with my pistol. I also like the gear associated with the AR. But if I'm being honest with myself the odds of me actually using it to defend life are very very low. So while I may enjoy taking a 2-, 3-day, or week-long carbine course, I need to be sure I'm not forsaking other more important skills to do so. I think Tactical Response's HRCC course would be tons of fun, but that's ay down on my list of training priorities to the point that I'll probably never take it.

Most of us (myself included) would benefit from more physical fitness training, medical training, and awareness/deescalation training way before a week at super ninja shooting school.

So seek out the instruction that is most in line with your own lifestyle, not just what looks cool on a magazine cover. And if you do take the magazine cover commando training, be honest with yourself about why you're taking it.

Sgtusmc I don't think the skills you learned in the service are now somehow superfluous, I just think the tactics should probably change now that you're a civilian.

 

[Sgtusmc]

I can see where you came to that conclusion, but I don't think that was the focus or intent of the author.

The main points I took away were:

• We need to be honest with ourselves as to why we take the type of training we do
• We need to train realistically for our actual lives and not the lives we wished we lived
• We need to keep the above two things in mind when selecting a trainer/school

For example, I like shooting my AR. It's fun. I can make hits faster and at greater distances than I can with my pistol. I also like the gear associated with the AR. But if I'm being honest with myself the odds of me actually using it to defend life are very very low. So while I may enjoy taking a 2-, 3-day, or week-long carbine course, I need to be sure I'm not forsaking other more important skills to do so. I think Tactical Response's HRCC course would be tons of fun, but that's ay down on my list of training priorities to the point that I'll probably never take it.

Most of us (myself included) would benefit from more physical fitness training, medical training, and awareness/deescalation training way before a week at super ninja shooting school.

So seek out the instruction that is most in line with your own lifestyle, not just what looks cool on a magazine cover. And if you do take the magazine cover commando training, be honest with yourself about why you're taking it.

Sgtusmc I don't think the skills you learned in the service are now somehow superfluous, I just think the tactics should probably change now that you're a civilian.

Thanks, I understood your version better than the authors.

 

[riverman67]

Your wish, sire.

MilSpec Monkey Shuttle Door Gunner Patch

I'm getting one for every range bag.
That is outstanding!
I can see me passing these out to a few people at work,right after they tell their story about being a seal.
They need one for fast roping off the shuttle,whackin tangos

 

[Popeye81]

Can you specifically identify which trainer(s) you are referencing?

The reason some have started their own training company is because they didn't like what they were seeing in the market and figured they could do it better. Others just like the opportunity of passing on some abilities they have learned over the years. I'm seeing more and more gun stores opening, but the truth about anything is, if people don't want it, they will soon go out of business. People still have the ability to vote with their wallets.

I'm not gonna name drop or call anybody out by name as it was not my intention to start anything personal. I do agree with the author in the posted articles and I believe that people do need to be honest with not only why their seeking certain training but why their seeking it from certain people.

 

[the1kidd03]

That's part of the problem. "Qualifications" don't make you a good teacher, and "Qualifications" don't make your subject matter relevant to the student. Some honest reflection is needed on the part of both student, and instructor.

I'm sure you've misunderstood what I define as a qualification and misinterpreted the intended meaning behind my post.

 

[David Rose]

I apologize kid.

Standardize=?
Measure=?
Qualification=?

 

[the1kidd03]

That's part of the problem. "Qualifications" don't make you a good teacher, and "Qualifications" don't make your subject matter relevant to the student. Some honest reflection is needed on the part of both student, and instructor.

I apologize kid.

Standardize=?
Measure=?
Qualification=?

Individually the words you select here may mean something quite different. Collectively as they were used (standardized meassure OF instructor qualifications) it signifies a basic level of common knowledge shared by all instructors of a given level of skills being taught.

For example, in your first reply quoted above you demonstrate the common complaint I see from instructors on this board in particular. That being that many "instructors" don't know how to teach. A nationally recognized standard whereby instructor candidates are taught about public speaking, learning theory, presentation, etc., etc. before being certified as an instructor would largely solve this complaint. It would also do a great deal of good towards eliminating those instructors that people such as yourself complain/comment about.

To me, that entire well rounded education should be neessary for an instructor and collectively would be defined as a "qualification." Instead, you seem to be interpreting "qualification" as meaning an existing, and often menial standard such as military/LE service or NRA instructor certifications. To me, the closest one of those that could be an actual standard is the NRA certs.

Currently, all you have to do is come up with a fancy name and start advertising as an instructor. Slap a price you THINK you are worth, try to get people to come, and you can call yourself an "instructor." There are a LOT of issues with the way things are in this industry now. From a professional standpoint, I believe those issues should be addressed however I think some of them should be left alone for the overall good of the gun owner community. There may be good and bad instructors out there, but at some point you raise the bar too much and it could hurt the industry by reducing the number of "qualified" instructors out there. In this day and age of ever increasing attacks on gun owners' rights, that may not be a good thing.

 

[cedartop]

Individually the words you select here may mean something quite different. Collectively as they were used (standardized meassure OF instructor qualifications) it signifies a basic level of common knowledge shared by all instructors of a given level of skills being taught.

For example, in your first reply quoted above you demonstrate the common complaint I see from instructors on this board in particular. That being that many "instructors" don't know how to teach. A nationally recognized standard whereby instructor candidates are taught about public speaking, learning theory, presentation, etc., etc. before being certified as an instructor would largely solve this complaint. It would also do a great deal of good towards eliminating those instructors that people such as yourself complain/comment about.

To me, that entire well rounded education should be neessary for an instructor and collectively would be defined as a "qualification." Instead, you seem to be interpreting "qualification" as meaning an existing, and often menial standard such as military/LE service or NRA instructor certifications. To me, the closest one of those that could be an actual standard is the NRA certs.

Currently, all you have to do is come up with a fancy name and start advertising as an instructor. Slap a price you THINK you are worth, try to get people to come, and you can call yourself an "instructor." There are a LOT of issues with the way things are in this industry now. From a professional standpoint, I believe those issues should be addressed however I think some of them should be left alone for the overall good of the gun owner community. There may be good and bad instructors out there, but at some point you raise the bar too much and it could hurt the industry by reducing the number of "qualified" instructors out there. In this day and age of ever increasing attacks on gun owners' rights, that may not be a good thing.

This isn't the first time your leanings toward nannyism have surfaced. How about we let the free market sort it out. Aren't we regulated enough already? Your NRA example is about the worst thing I can think of. Their are some good NRA instructors, just as there are good non NRA instructors, but if you think that their standards would "qualify" a good instructor, fat chance. Just having a "standard" isn't the answer.

 

[Que]

I'm not gonna name drop or call anybody out by name as it was not my intention to start anything personal. I do agree with the author in the posted articles and I believe that people do need to be honest with not only why their seeking certain training but why their seeking it from certain people.

Well, there is certainly no reason to get personal. I just wanted an example, since I've not heard or read any instructor say something close to Don of Don's Guns mantra.

People spend money wherever they wish and I really don't understand why anyone would care where another person spends their money. There are many reasons people choose a certain instructor. Some of those reasons may include:

- Reputation
- Cost
- Location/convenience
- Demonstrated ability to teach
- Different take on tactics
- Personality
- Specific classes offered
- Experience

If an instructor has nothing to set him apart from his competition, then what would make anyone take his course?

 

[the1kidd03]

This isn't the first time your leanings toward nannyism have surfaced. How about we let the free market sort it out. Aren't we regulated enough already? Your NRA example is about the worst thing I can think of. Their are some good NRA instructors, just as there are good non NRA instructors, but if you think that their standards would "qualify" a good instructor, fat chance. Just having a "standard" isn't the answer.

On the contrary, you are also misinterpreting what I've meant.

First of all, I have demonstrated no possible interpretation of "nannyism." You consider those who you pay in other fields to be professionals. You expect your doctors to be knowledgeable and educated in their profession. You expect your mechanics, lawyers, engineers, etc., etc. to be the same. You expect everyone who you give money to to have an acceptable standard of knowledge and education behind them to be considered a "professional" and to do what you expect of them well. Why do you feel that an appropriate education for firearms instructors is less warranted to be deemed a "professional" at what they do and expect to get paid for? To me it is no different yet currently there is no standard for this industry. Making it virtually the only one that has no real standards.

Yet, I find it funny that with no standard and the power of the free market instructors here demonstrate their disatisfaction with the attendance of their class by stating things like "I'm not getting rich here." Rather than identifying ways to improve that attendance from a business standpoint they find it easier to fall into the natural human tendencies and blame others; "your priorities are wrong" for example. Professional businesses identify where to improve, not where to place fault.

Where have I demonstrated the belief that NRA certifications are at all a lone requisite for a good instructor? I haven't. You've simply chosen to interpret my comments as such.

NRA classes are very obviously developed to fill a void and for a specific intent. When considering that intent, they are well formulated and the entire program is well developed for that specifically. The intent being to get a basic level of knowledge on a topic out to as many people as possible to avoid incidents which could further hurt gun rights. Could there be revisions made, sure but then consider when the program and curriculum was developed and who the likely students will be. Also, again consider what it's intended for and how it's used.

Professional curriculum design is very specific and it's meant to be. You identify your end goal, the level of knowledge the people that will attend will likely already have, etc. Then begin laying out the points you need them to know to meet that end goal and how to accomplish it.

From that standpoint and considering what it was/is intended for, the NRA certifications are the closest thing to a standard this industry currently has. The NRA isn't interested in necessarily being the industry wide standardizing agency, so they stick to what affects their primary interests. They don't desire to be the "combat/tactical/FOF/ gurus of the world." Their duty is to protect gun rights and in a non-profit fashion so they don't step over those bounds too much. Therefore, when you get into more advanced topics you are getting outside the spectrum of what the NRA's interested in, although they do have a great deal of further marketing ploys to increase their PR and revenue.

 

[iChokePeople]

 

[Classic]

If degrees and certifications were the answer, the public school system would be just about perfect.

 

[N8RV]

As someone who wants to teach others someday, I find this topic of great interest. I will never have an applicable military or LE background that will cause others to seek out my knowledge. I'll be one of those civilian types who takes a bunch of courses and then passes on to others what I have learned. Isn't that what teaching is supposed to be?

On the plus side, since I'm finishing one professional career and moving onto something that I want to do for myself and not to make a living, I can't be accused of being a charlatan as an instructor. I just want to teach others to shoot safely and accurately.

However, the Kid brings up a very valid point, IMO. Having NRA certification seems to be a prerequisite for nearly every firearms teaching position in most places, even though it's generally considered outdated and overrated by most serious shooters. We even had a student in a Level One defensive handgun class who was not just bad, but was downright dangerous in his handling skills -- but who confided to me during a break that he possessed NRA Pistol Instructor certification!

At my point in planning my next career, I have to agree with Que -- there's no place like home. Sure, I'd love to fly out to Gunsite or Thunder Ranch, or even drive down to see Yeager (not really), but there's really no reason to. There are really good teachers right here in Indiana, as well as courses held here with Big Name Instructors. Unless and until one masters the basics, is there much value in spending the money and the time to go to the famous places, other than for bragging rights and/or resume-building?

Beyond basic gun-handling skills, TACTICS and MINDSET are likely the next largest influences on the outcome of any lethal encounter. And as much as it might be fun to learn from the likes of Chris Kyle (RIP) or Travis Haley, would their knowledge and experience bases be of superior value to the civilian scenarios that we all are likely to encounter?