Why all of the 1911 hatred lately?

[VERT]

I seem to remember Yeager doing a serious suck up Video at the Wilson complex not long ago.

Yes billt posted all of those videos and I watched them again. I actually agree with most of what Yeager says on most matters in which he speaks. (Might not always like how he says it but I usually agree.) If I had the money I would love to purchase a Wilson CQB with a pile of new mags and try my hand at the challenge. But I am 100% sure my Tactical Elite and PC1911 would puke after being thrown in the clay. It is not that I mind scratching or getting these guns dirty. Rather I honestly believe the designs would not lend themselves to this type of treatment. TN Clay and gun lube don't mix well.

I am actually researching the Pincus challenge right now. From what I can tell it applies to sub compact 1911s and a person can not have any user errors. 1000-1200 rounds in 2 days with no user, magazine, or ammunition failures is a pretty tally order for any pistol. I am not sure my Glock would meet those criteria. Reminds me of a challenge to eat a 96 oz steak fat and all. "Sorry sir you didn't make it, here is your bill for $75." Marketing! Attack the ego and people will plop down cash to prove you wrong.

 

[billt]

Do I think they have a vested interest in being biased? Yes. They are out there selling a product.

What product are they selling that would benefit from them bashing the reliability of 1911's?

 

[churchmouse]

What product are they selling that would benefit from them bashing the reliability of 1911's?

Any camera time is better than none.

 

[billt]

Any camera time is better than none.

You said they were, "out there selling a product". What product are they selling?

 

[Win52C]

Expat.....I am very butthurt that I can't have that Wilson Combat...


Lol. That's funny right there

 

[churchmouse]

You said they were, "out there selling a product". What product are they selling?

I think Vert said that but memory sucks this morning.
They are selling themselves. Any publicity is good. Look at the attention Yeager got when he started slamming 1911's. He was in a red hot spotlight.

 

[Win52C]

Is there supposed to be something in all of that gibberish that says you're better off with a gun that holds less ammo?

Pretty sure all that "gibberish" says most likely your not going to need 17+1 rounds. More likely 2

 

[billt]

I think Vert said that but memory sucks this morning.
They are selling themselves. Any publicity is good. Look at the attention Yeager got when he started slamming 1911's. He was in a red hot spotlight.

He was also in the doghouse with every 1911 lover out there. And there are a lot of them. If I wanted to push my image as a firearms trainer for the sake of increasing attendance at my school, I'm certainly not going to do it by alienating thousands of potential applicants by slamming the gun they worship.

These guys are being simply being honest with what they witnessed. Yeager himself said 1911's are fine when they're built correctly. Many of them are not because of cost. $600 will only buy you so much precision in todays manufacturing world. He's not on Wilson's payroll. These guys sell schooling, not products. Except for maybe tee shirts and some other crap.

 

[billt]

Pretty sure all that "gibberish" says most likely your not going to need 17+1 rounds. More likely 2

For me anyway, "most likely" doesn't cut it if my life is at stake.

 

[VERT]

Yep selling themselves.

1) Reason to attend their school as opposed to GunSite, ThunderRanch, LFI, TDI, Hackatorn, Farnam,.......... All of these including ICE and TR would be fine places to train. What we have now are the second generation of trainers (maybe 3rd). Those older guys in the industry were heavily influenced by Cooper himself. They are growing and evolving and yes even trying to create their own unique philosophies. I am doing the same thing at work right now and it is ticking my boss off! But he also has to listen to what I say because my ideas tend to give good results. Problem is what we are doing is/has worked well up to this point and there is no reason to believe it won't continue to work.

2) A large percentage of their customer base will be carrying Glocks/M&Ps

3) The challenge attacks to Egos of 1911 owners (i.e. old guys) which makes them want to prove this know it all wrong. These are people who most likely would not take ICE or TR course anyway.

What would be a better example against the 1911 pistol would be Vickers and Givens. Both of them have switched from 1911 to Glock. Those are the guys you need to ask. Givens referred to a 1911 as a 2 bad guy gun. He currently carries a Glock 35 which is a 3 bad guy gun. So capacity is something he would favor apparently. Notice he went from 1911 to Glock 35 so apparently accuracy and shootability are also important.

 

[VERT]

He was also in the doghouse with every 1911 lover out there. And there are a lot of them. If I wanted to push my image as a firearms trainer for the sake of increasing attendance at my school, I'm certainly not going to do it by alienating thousands of potential applicants by slamming the gun they worship.

These guys are being simply being honest with what they witnessed. Yeager himself said 1911's are fine when they're built correctly. Many of them are not because of cost. $600 will only buy you so much precision in todays manufacturing world. He's not on Wilson's payroll. These guys sell schooling, not products. Except for maybe tee shirts and some other crap.

I.C.E. is not selling products? Hmm....... No holsters? No special edition M&Ps? (Edit: I googled that and it is is Costa with the M&P. I did find the I.C.E claw rear sight though.)

$600 1911s suck. Don't disagree. Sorry guys they blow. I am a snob and I apologize.

I would say Yeager would not have filled classes with the rank and file 1911 owner who pays homage to JMB and keeps a print copy of The Modern Technique on his bookshelf. Doesn't really matter what he said in that regard.

 

[billt]

I.C.E. is not selling products? Hmm....... No holsters? No special edition M&Ps? (Edit: I googled that and it is is Costa with the M&P. I did find the I.C.E claw rear sight though.

And how is bashing 1911's going to sell holsters? Come on.

 

[VERT]

And how is bashing 1911's going to sell holsters? Come on.

Not at all. Your comment was these guys sell training and not products. Training or their name is a product. So yes they are selling. I will have to look and see what the ICE holster fits. I remember an INGO thread about it and I found the concept very interesting.

Edit: http://icestore.us/I-C-E-Modular-Belly-Band-Holster-from-Crossbreed.html

No option for my commander length 1911.

 

[billt]

And I keep asking.....How is bashing 1911's going to increase their sales, when so many gun enthusiasts love the model?

 

[VERT]

We are on a public forum talking about I.C.E. And Tactical Response in a thread that really has nothing to with either. I think these guys are genius.

 

[churchmouse]

The new breed of gun owner is a young man who prefers the Glock/M&P style guns for budget and other reasons. This is the group I would target if doing the Tactical school thing. Not a group of middle aged or older guys that are sporting 1911's.
This is not me justifying my position just looking at a market.

 

[d30carls]

Carry what you shoot best.

AMEN this is the reason I carry my XD personally always loved the look of the 1911s bought one in march traded it for another xd in april just not my cup of tea to each their own I bought the rock island officers model and i personally could not hit the broad side of the barn with it always jammed on the very last round every single time no matter what i did or how many magazines i tried now with my xd I can put 10 shots through a 50cent piece at 13 yards but everyone is different

If you watch the polymer guns u will see too one month its glocks being sold left and right next xd's and the next m&p's just depends on what people want

 

[churchmouse]

AMEN this is the reason I carry my XD personally always loved the look of the 1911s bought one in march traded it for another xd in april just not my cup of tea to each their own I bought the rock island officers model and i personally could not hit the broad side of the barn with it always jammed on the very last round every single time no matter what i did or how many magazines i tried now with my xd I can put 10 shots through a 50cent piece at 13 yards but everyone is different

If you watch the polymer guns u will see too one month its glocks being sold left and right next xd's and the next m&p's just depends on what people want

You bought a Rock Island. Not the best entry choice. I am sure it was a matter of price but that is not a good platform. I have over the last year rebuilt a few of these with parts from better 1911's. Once that is done they run pretty well.

If you rock the XD hen Rock on.

 

[Birds Away]

^^^This. I wouldn't judge 1911s by a Rock Island. But I understand that for the same or nearly the same price point you can get a perfectly reliable plastic gun. If you like those and are good with one then stick with them.

 

[VERT]

Yep for $400 - $600 I can name several striker fired guns that will run right out of the box. No fuse. I work with a lot of new gun owners and I rarely recommend a 1911. Glock, M&P, XDm, SR9, Walter PPQ would round out my top 5