Where would you shoot a bad guy in self defense?

[Steve MI]

i also recommend talking to guys whom have actually shot people in the pelvis its an in interesting topic from them also try Jeff g book he mentions as well.

 

[rhino]

to actually crush the griddle and have it collapse you need to hit the golf ball sized impact points they are buried deep in the pelvic region and well protected as well

This is an important point.

While it's possible to reduce someone's mobility with a shot to part of the supporting structure in that region, it's tough to do it. That area of the body is mostly space filled with gooey stuff, not bone. Furthermore, even if you fully understand the anatomy involved (which most people don't), actually visualizing where you need to hit on a specific individual is difficult if not impossible, then you also have to get the shot(s) there. Add the complication that the person probably won't be facing you squarely, and it gets even more difficult. With big people (like me), I defy anyone to really know where they need to shoot to hit a piece of bone that is weight bearing. Most people couldn't even be able to discern where my leg stops and my torso starts if I'm standing in front of them (clothed).

Add this little clue: how many old ladies are walking around with broken hips and don't even know it? They just think they're in pain because they're old and arthritic. It may slow them down a little, but it doesn't always stop them. A physically fit 20-40-something is going to be tough to stop that way.

So, let's say you do successfully destroy the hip joint or whatever. If the assailant has an impact weapon, you're good to go as long as you keep your distance. If he has a gun, he's still a significant threat.

If the pelvic region is your only choice in a given scenario or the highest probability of a hit, then I say go for it. Just don't expect it to be easy to stop someone that way or for it to be a high percentage shot, because it is not. Hit what you can to either allow you to break contact, or to create an advantage so you can get more hits on other targets as they become available.

 

[mk2ja]

I think the bigger reason ayoob recommends pointing at the pelvic area is not to shoot that area, but rather it lets you see the target more clearly.

pointing at center mass could block your vision of his pockets and/or hands...

If you're pointing down, and you see the instant the target takes action, then you can quickly bring the aim up and hit center mass

I think this is what ayoob was trying to stress...

I also got the impression that Ayoob was focusing on the tactic of keeping the sightline clear. If you read his other writings, I am confident you'll find he consistently advocates for center of mass, which of course doesn't conflict with keeping the BG's hands visible by aiming low.

 

[rhino]

Oh, and since I'm currently working on a solution to a Physics exam I'm administering on Monday evening, I feel the urge to repeat what I mentioned in my first message in this topic.

The center of mass of an adult is not where you should be aiming (unless it's your only available shot). The center of mass of an average adult male is in the abdomen, and closer to the hips/belt line for an average female. I knwo you guys are thinking the right target areas on the upper torso, but that's NOT THE CENTER OF MASS, even if the term has been used over and over for decades.

The primary target area that most teach is somewhere in the upper thorax along the midline of the body. We at ACT and some others call that "high, center chest." Again, it is not the center of mass of a human body. It is significantly higher than the actual center of mass.

 

[Glock21]

This is an important point.

While it's possible to reduce someone's mobility with a shot to part of the supporting structure in that region, it's tough to do it. That area of the body is mostly space filled with gooey stuff, not bone. Furthermore, even if you fully understand the anatomy involved (which most people don't), actually visualizing where you need to hit on a specific individual is difficult if not impossible, then you also have to get the shot(s) there. Add the complication that the person probably won't be facing you squarely, and it gets even more difficult. With big people (like me), I defy anyone to really know where they need to shoot to hit a piece of bone that is weight bearing. Most people couldn't even be able to discern where my leg stops and my torso starts if I'm standing in front of them (clothed).

Add this little clue: how many old ladies are walking around with broken hips and don't even know it? They just think they're in pain because they're old and arthritic. It may slow them down a little, but it doesn't always stop them. A physically fit 20-40-something is going to be tough to stop that way.

So, let's say you do successfully destroy the hip joint or whatever. If the assailant has an impact weapon, you're good to go as long as you keep your distance. If he has a gun, he's still a significant threat.

If the pelvic region is your only choice in a given scenario or the highest probability of a hit, then I say go for it. Just don't expect it to be easy to stop someone that way or for it to be a high percentage shot, because it is not. Hit what you can to either allow you to break contact, or to create an advantage so you can get more hits on other targets as they become available.

I would add to this (and yes, Rhino touched on it) that stopping mobility is only part of the problem. You shut his legs down, great - now what about his hands!

I was at the range this morning, and once on the line, I didn't need my legs a single time to make hits. I even made hits shooting on my back, backwards over my head...which had my target upside down. No legs needed!

 

[Steve MI]

to many talk and not think its al easy i saw it on tv

 

[kingnereli]

to many talk and not think its al easy i saw it on tv

You're the man. We're all wannabes, but you're the real deal.

 

[Steve MI]

ahh no never said that its in response message i got.... i laughed, you on the other hand are my hero,,,,,,,, please enlighten us more grandmaster with your wise wisdom since your so well versed in all this and im sure no more than what i ever will

 

[hunter_47443]

Let me recommend two great books
1st.... In The Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob
2nd...Armed Response by David Kenik

If you haven't read these, I highly recommend them, especially Massad's book.
It deals with the legal,ethical, and practical side of using a gun.

 

[Coach]

I like the phrase "triangle of death" for the target area on a bad guy.

 

[KahrFan]

I enjoyed "In the Gravest Extreme". It definitely made me aware of certain things I was completely oblivious to. The red Indiana handgun law book (found at our local gun shows) is also a good, comprehensive read.

I think I would shoot to stop the attack as fast as possible. Center breast plate...three shots, and shooting upwards. I practive multiple taps often. The cw45 is great for follow-up shots.

my 2c

 

[JUMBO]

This ^.


COM doesn't mean specifically "chest" or "torso"...it's the middle of whatever is presenting itself. If "what you can see" is masked head peeking partly around a door and you are shooting at it...That is still COM.

+1 for annie



Two well placed shots to the CT region (Cardio thoracic). Easier said than done! Practice DOES make perfect, however, many soldiers in the heat of battle (including Myself) have experienced that feeling in the back of Your throat...that feeling of impending doom of WOW is this really happening to me, is my brain able to process this? is this a dream? that OPFOR (opposing force)is shooting at Me... Am I gonna die, or am I gonna shut down and curl into a ball or am I gonna do something about it!

Milli-seconds preceding a encounter whether it be on the streets in civillian life, or in a hotbed mess of some war shattered country is something I hope most never have to endure. Some of You will, or have already and as You know It is nothing short of a life changing experience! Having the skill set to encounter and react is a good thing and as I stated previous practice makes perfect, but when it comes right down to it, its mighty hard to hit a stationary target when under duress let alone a moving one.

I am still the guy in the back of the restaurant with My back against the farthest wall, and uncle sam didn't teach me that, I learned that much earlier in life in the good ol' Boy Scouts of America in the Motto of "BE PREPARED"! I just didn't knew it applied in such a way until later in life lol!

 

[semperfi211]

Center mass until my mag is empty or he or she is horizontal.

 

[RHorn]

It depends on the situation but generally aim for the center of mass, most likely the chest. But if you are given a smaller target take what you can get. It is best to spend a lot of time practicing so you know the limits of yourself and your gun.

 

[mk2ja]

Let me recommend two great books
1st.... In The Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob
2nd...Armed Response by David Kenik

If you haven't read these, I highly recommend them, especially Massad's book.
It deals with the legal,ethical, and practical side of using a gun.

for [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Gravest-Extreme-Firearm-Personal-Protection/dp/0936279001/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265604568&sr=8-1]Amazon.com: In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection (0749522009954): Massad F. Ayoob: Books[/ame]

I've not yet read [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Armed-Response-Comprehensive-Firearms-Self-Defense/dp/0936783451/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265604605&sr=8-1]Amazon.com: Armed Response: A Comprehensive Guide to Using Firearms for Self-Defense (9780936783451): David Kenik: Books[/ame], but I'll add it to my stack of books I want to read when I have time.

 

[MACHINEGUN]

As Coach said.. anywhere in the "Triangle of Death" will do, if not... repeat if necessary.

 

[Chefcook]

In the big toe.???

 

[SSGSAD]

Where he stands, whatever he shows...

 

[kingnereli]

ahh no never said that its in response message i got.... i laughed, you on the other hand are my hero,,,,,,,, please enlighten us more grandmaster with your wise wisdom since your so well versed in all this and im sure no more than what i ever will

No, thank you. I choose to not be condescending and insulting to those who disagree with me.

 

[Steve MI]

whatever you say