Where would you shoot a bad guy in self defense?

[samwathegreat]

head.

 

[finity]

I think you're mostly correct, but I just thought I'd make the comment that we do still need care if we shoot the BG because we're still responsible for rounds that don't hit the intended target.

I do imagine that in the heat of an attack against me I may not remember to do the full procedure of lining up the sights. That's why training is so important, because the more I train, the more likely I am to "remember" because it'll be so natural.

That is kind of my point, too. I believe (again just MHO along with lots of reading material by others than the standard "stand & deliver" trainers) that taking the time to "line up the sights" in a typical one-on-one, bad breath distance SD scenario will likely get you killed or at best shot.

We're not cops or military who generally know going into a situation what is going on or are at least prepared for the eventuality of using force. We're just regular people walking down the street or sitting in our cars until, out of the blue, a BG sticks a knife or gun in our face & says "give me your wallet".

Really, the guy who is trying to get your wallet is not going to be 21 feet away yelling that he is going to kill you. If you are "lucky" enough to find yourself in that situation, great! () Use the sights. If not & you "fall back on your training" trying to come to a full "Modern Technique" stance while lining up the sights, I really, honestly, hope it works out for you.

All I'm saying is pick your training carefully.

 

[Joe Williams]

That is kind of my point, too. I believe (again just MHO along with lots of reading material by others than the standard "stand & deliver" trainers) that taking the time to "line up the sights" in a typical one-on-one, bad breath distance SD scenario will likely get you killed or at best shot.

We're not cops or military who generally know going into a situation what is going on or are at least prepared for the eventuality of using force. We're just regular people walking down the street or sitting in our cars until, out of the blue, a BG sticks a knife or gun in our face & says "give me your wallet".

Really, the guy who is trying to get your wallet is not going to be 21 feet away yelling that he is going to kill you. If you are "lucky" enough to find yourself in that situation, great! () Use the sights. If not & you "fall back on your training" trying to come to a full "Modern Technique" stance while lining up the sights, I really, honestly, hope it works out for you.

All I'm saying is pick your training carefully.

Do not be so quick to disregard the necessity for sights, or to assume that a defensive encounter will be a close range one. There are very plausible scenarios that could have you shooting at longer ranges than you can reliably "point shoot."

For example, it is an eight yard shot from my bedroom door down the hallway to the front door, a shot that would have to be taken past my son's bedroom door. If you aren't using sights at that range, you'll miss. The longest range shot I could make from just outside my bedroom door, into part of the living room, is 16 yards. If I'm working on my truck while my boy is shovelling snow from the driveway and he's near the other end, when someone drove by and tried to grab him I'd be looking at an almost 30 yard shop. If I'm pumping gas, and my wife is coming out the door of the store and is attacked, it's a good 25 yard shot. Just a couple possible scenarios.

True, most encounters are likely to be at rather short range, and being able to hit from an indexed position or point shooting is an important skill, it's not the only one we should master. I can reliably hit using those techniques out to 5 yards or so, assuming I'm not having to shoot past my wife or kid. Further than that, I'd best be looking at that front sight.

 

[finity]

Do not be so quick to disregard the necessity for sights, or to assume that a defensive encounter will be a close range one. There are very plausible scenarios that could have you shooting at longer ranges than you can reliably "point shoot."

For example, it is an eight yard shot from my bedroom door down the hallway to the front door, a shot that would have to be taken past my son's bedroom door. If you aren't using sights at that range, you'll miss. The longest range shot I could make from just outside my bedroom door, into part of the living room, is 16 yards. If I'm working on my truck while my boy is shovelling snow from the driveway and he's near the other end, when someone drove by and tried to grab him I'd be looking at an almost 30 yard shop. If I'm pumping gas, and my wife is coming out the door of the store and is attacked, it's a good 25 yard shot. Just a couple possible scenarios.

True, most encounters are likely to be at rather short range, and being able to hit from an indexed position or point shooting is an important skill, it's not the only one we should master. I can reliably hit using those techniques out to 5 yards or so, assuming I'm not having to shoot past my wife or kid. Further than that, I'd best be looking at that front sight.

Agreed. If you CAN use the sights, do so.

The only issue I have is that, with most training, which translates directly to peoples idea of "two to the chest, one to the head" that we see here, it seems the assumption is that you will be able to use the sights & that is what is emphasized.

 

[HICKMAN]

Center of Mass as defined by the US Army as per FM 3-22.9 Advanced Rifle Marksmanship, Chapter 7 Paragraph 184-187

POINT OF AIM
7-184. Most short-range engagements will be decided by who hits his target with the first round. During
this type of engagement, it is more important to put the target down as quickly as possible than it is to kill
him immediately.
7-185. Soldiers must aim at the lethal zone (center of mass) of the body. Although shots to the center of
the body may prove to be eventually fatal, they may not immediately incapacitate the target. A shot that
does not immediately incapacitate the target may be no better than a clean miss. Because of this, and the
possible presence of military equipment or protective vests, Soldiers must also be able to engage targets
with incapacitating shots.

Lethal Shot Placement
7-186. The target's lethal zone (Figure 7-24) is its center of mass, between the waist and the chest. Shots
in this area maximize the hydrostatic shock of the shot pellets. Due to the nature of SRC, Soldiers must
continue to engage targets until they go down.



Figure 7-24. Lethal zone.
Incapacitating Shot Placement
7-187. Only one shot placement guarantees immediate and total incapacitation: roughly centered in the
face, below the middle of the forehead and the upper lip, and from the eyes in. Shots to the side of the head
should be centered between the crown of the skull and the middle of the ear opening, from the center of the
cheekbones to the middle of the back of the head (Figure 7-25).

Figure 7-25. Incapacitation zone.


So for a soldier to Center of Mass, he would be correct... Hmmmmm

this

 

[Coach]

Agreed. If you CAN use the sights, do so.

The only issue I have is that, with most training, which translates directly to peoples idea of "two to the chest, one to the head" that we see here, it seems the assumption is that you will be able to use the sights & that is what is emphasized.

If you have let someone get close enough that the sights are of no use the chances are that you have not maintained anywhere near the needed amount of situational awareness. I have come to the conclusion that many on this board feel that using the sights is silly as you will not have time to use them so don't bother.

You seem to have come to the conclusion that many on here feel that sighted fire is the only way to go.

How does this divergent conclusion happen?

 

[finity]

If you have let someone get close enough that the sights are of no use the chances are that you have not maintained anywhere near the needed amount of situational awareness.

There is no way that someone can be "on point" every second of every day that you are out & about. You can't go through life assuming that every person who walks by you is going to kill you. Sometimes things happen & you can't control it.

I have come to the conclusion that many on this board feel that using the sights is silly as you will not have time to use them so don't bother.

You seem to have come to the conclusion that many on here feel that sighted fire is the only way to go.

How does this divergent conclusion happen?

I guess it depends on which "many" you are talking about.

In this thread it seems that many (most?) seem to be thinking that the sights are going to be used in the majority of typical SD cases. Hence the reference to being able to put "two in the chest, one in the head". You can't do that & not use the sights...unless you are really good at point-shooting while moving or get real lucky.

There may be other threads where the majority of posters don't use sights.

There are a lot of people here. Not all post in all threads.

 

[topash]

In the past I would have come down on the side of using sights to take a head shot, but now as I've gotten older and need bifocals I would go with point shooting to the chest until the mag ran dry. I practice point shooting with my nonhunting sidearms all the time.

 

[kingnereli]

It is sheer luck if you hit without using the sights. TRAIN to use the sights.

As far as situation awareness, you can be "on point" all the time. It isn't a any great trouble. It is a matter of developing habits and making the decision to not be oblivious to what is going on around you. Here are some examples.

When I stop at a gas station I park on the opposite side then where I pulled in so I can drive by the door and take a look inside. I'll note that there is a middle aged female buying a big gulp and a pack of cigarettes and a teenage male wearing too tight jeans and a pac sun t-shirt. (or whatever happens to be the case.) When my family gets in the car I let my wife buckle up our daughter while I stand outside. I'm always the last one in the car so that I can be positioned and aware just in case. I'm always the first one in the house in case we have unwelcomed visitors. When I'm out of the house I try to keep track of and control the amount of space between me and other people.

It isn't a great inconvenience to practice situational awareness. It is also far from walking around paranoid all the time. Just keep your eyes up. It is quite silly for anyone to make the commitment to carry a defensive firearm all the time and not train to use it the way it was intended or to expand that commitment to being aware enough to either avoid the need to use it or give yourself the best possible chance of being in a position to use it effectively.

 

[Joe Williams]

It is sheer luck if you hit without using the sights. TRAIN to use the sights.
snip

Not necessarily sheer luck. Like I said, I can reliably put my rounds into an 8" circle center of chest (just for you, Rhino) out to four or five yards. At arm's length, they'll go into just a couple inches. And that's center chest, not just somewhere on the target. It's a useful skill to have, since many encounters are at arm's reach, or perhaps across the car. Firing from an indexed, retention position is markedly faster than extending your arm to go to sights, and can prevent a struggle for your gun. It takes a LOT more practice and is harder, IMHO, than learning sighted fire if you wish to be able to dump your rounds where you want them using point shooting. It's a worthwhile skill to have, a vital one I think, and is just one more tool in the basket.

 

[Roadie]

It is sheer luck if you hit without using the sights. TRAIN to use the sights.

As far as situation awareness, you can be "on point" all the time. It isn't a any great trouble. It is a matter of developing habits and making the decision to not be oblivious to what is going on around you. Here are some examples.

When I stop at a gas station I park on the opposite side then where I pulled in so I can drive by the door and take a look inside. I'll note that there is a middle aged female buying a big gulp and a pack of cigarettes and a teenage male wearing too tight jeans and a pac sun t-shirt. (or whatever happens to be the case.) When my family gets in the car I let my wife buckle up our daughter while I stand outside. I'm always the last one in the car so that I can be positioned and aware just in case. I'm always the first one in the house in case we have unwelcomed visitors. When I'm out of the house I try to keep track and control the amount of space between me and other people.

It isn't a great inconvenience to practice situational awareness. It is also far from walking around paranoid all the time. Just keep your eyes up. It is quite silly for anyone to make the commitment to carry a defensive firearm all the time and not train to use it the way it was intended or to expand that commitment to being aware enough to either avoid the need to use it or give yourself the best possible chance of being in a position to use it effectively.

Gotta agree with Joe. Have you ever heard of "Point Shooting" ?

Point shooting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It is NOT sheer luck.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlTQykgnCKk&NR=1]YouTube - Point Shooting training[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhW4TXYqkxQ&feature=related]YouTube - Fast Hip point shooting[/ame]

As you can see, it is a skill that can be learned and practiced, not luck. In fact, I have seen a trick shooter consistently hit an apple at about 10 ft shooting from the hip.

 

[bigiron]

i can't take it anymore.....after reading the title for the last three weeks i've gotta say it! i would shoot a bad guy in the bathtub. much less mess to clean up......i know, i know but it had to come out! have a nice day!

 

[revsaxon]

Most likely place to hit.

Like so many other people have said, double tap to center mass.

 

[jeremy]

It is sheer luck if you hit without using the sights. TRAIN to use the sights.

As far as situation awareness, you can be "on point" all the time. It isn't a any great trouble. It is a matter of developing habits and making the decision to not be oblivious to what is going on around you. Here are some examples.

To start with yes it is purely dumb luck when you are hitting the target without using your sights. HOWEVER, this is a skill that can be learned with enough practice. I would bet we have several shooter on this board that can do it as a matter of fact.


Second it is flaming impossible to be on point all the time. Period. Everybody drops their guard. Everybody. Murphy steps in on occasion and smites some when there guard is down.

 

[GunSlinger77]

I vote center mass, as I've been dutifully taught for many years. However, when the stuff hits the fan you may drop your first round lower on you target. This still works since hitting them in the pelvic region will stop them from running and put them in enough pain to hopefully make them stop whatever they were doing that was causing you to shoot at them!!

 

[kingnereli]

Okay, "sheer luck" was hyperbole. Shooting from the retention position is a noted exception. Though I'm no fan of point shooting (hip shooting). If the situation allows you to get your arms extended it is foolish* to not use the sights. I agree that the close proximity of some confrontations may not allow this. Shooting from retention isn't point shooting in its fullest sense. Point shooting is a complete system. One that teaches to look over the top of the gun even if the arms are at full extension. Or the even more insane* technique of pulling the trigger with the middle finger while keeping the trigger finger indexed along the frame.

*more hyperbole.

 

[dice dealer]

JUDGE : Dice dealer why did you shoot the perp 15 times in the face ?

DICE DEALER: I ran out of ammo your honor .

 

[dice dealer]

In all actuallity High center mass is the best place to aim ...

But if SHTF I am pulling the trigger on whatever spot i have a shot at until threat to my life is gone

 

[Glock21]

I would suggest that all here get ahold of some airsoft equipment and attempt to implement your plan (whatever it is) on real human targets that think, move and fight back. Until we all at least do that, what we think we will do in certain situations is purely hypothetical.

Airsoft isn't perfect, but it's about the best we can do without actually shooting one another for real. When set up correctly, it's going to be the most eye opening experience any of us will have with regard to what does and doesn't work in a gunfight.

 

[jeremy]

I would suggest that all here get ahold of some airsoft equipment and attempt to implement your plan (whatever it is) on real human targets that think, move and fight back. Until we all at least do that, what we think we will do in certain situations is purely hypothetical.

Airsoft isn't perfect, but it's about the best we can do without actually shooting one another for real. When set up correctly, it's going to be the most eye opening experience any of us will have with regard to what does and doesn't work in a gunfight.

All ready know where and how...

Maybe not the most eye opening, your first time in a real fight throws out a lot of the Hollywood BS that you think will work.

Train as you will fight , so you will fight as you have trained...