What is wrong with European socialism?

[gvbcraig]

That's a rather difficult question to answer

While I may not agree with it, there is nothing wrong if the collective population makes the choice to not keep and bear arms (assuming there is not a Constitutional guarantee like the US). The people made the CHOICE (common theme here).

When the socialists took power in Russia and even Germany, no one thought that their rights would be removed, or their arms confiscated so that they could not rise against the tyranny that came later. Those people did not make that choice. A complacency within that society to rely on those goverment hand outs has evoled, and they no longer know any better, self reliance is not comforting to them.

That is why I live here, my grandfather escaped when everything was taken away. The descendants of my relatives that could not escape, they do not know any better, since they have not truly lived in a free society and do not crave freedom.

 

[johnny45]

What is so wrong with European socialism?

Not much as far as the takers are concerned.

 

[spec4]

Never been over there but I would say it destroys the human spirit. The more you pay in taxes, the more enslaved you become.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Western Europe? Eastern Europe? Many countries in Europe under various types of socialism.
From being there a few times I will say this, everything is expensive. Not kind of expensive, really, really expensive. To make a round trip from Frankfurt Germany to Le Mans it was over $1200 American Dollars for fuel and tolls alone. It was about a 700 mile trip.
In Germany, you can collect unemployment for up to 3 years. When you are done with high school you take a test to see where you will go in the working world. Your options are on to college, and are given a field of study, or into a specific line of employment, construction, waiter etc where you will stay for the rest of your life. Income tax is nearly 40% of the wages in Germany too. You do not own property, it is leased to you by the government. You have a lifetime option, but it is only a lease and there is no guarantee that you can leave it to a heir upon your death.
These are just a few I remember from talking to people while I was there.

Were you in Soviet controlled Germany prior to reunification? Most of that certainly isn't true in modern Germany, if it ever was.

Germans can own private property, they don't "lease it from the government". Even foreigners can own land without much restriction: Buying property in Germany - how does it work?: Germany expat forum

Germans are free to choose their occupation, just like us. No one gives them a test and says "ah, you're a baker for the rest of your life" or whatever. They are free to change career fields or jobs at will, if someone will hire them, same as us.

Their unemployment is significantly less than ours, primarily due to an export based economy and a robust apprenticeship and trade school system. About 60% of high school grads go to tech schools, and they aren't looked down on like tech school vs college in the US. The Germans never forgot that they need to build things and not be a "service based economy", something that the US lost their way on. I don't know how long you can draw unemployment, but it seems like it hasn't turned them into a nation of slackers .

Their income tax is staggered. Translated into dollars, and with a bit of rounding:
0% on income up to $11,000
14% on income from $11,001 - $72,000
42% on income from $72,001 - $343,000
45% over $343,001..

So, if you made $100,000/yr in Germany your tax rate would be: 17.7% In the US, your effective rate would be 21.2%

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

Were you in Soviet controlled Germany prior to reunification? Most of that certainly isn't true in modern Germany, if it ever was.

Germans can own private property, they don't "lease it from the government". Even foreigners can own land without much restriction: Buying property in Germany - how does it work?: Germany expat forum

Germans are free to choose their occupation, just like us. No one gives them a test and says "ah, you're a baker for the rest of your life" or whatever. They are free to change career fields or jobs at will, if someone will hire them, same as us.

Their unemployment is significantly less than ours, primarily due to an export based economy and a robust apprenticeship and trade school system. About 60% of high school grads go to tech schools, and they aren't looked down on like tech school vs college in the US. The Germans never forgot that they need to build things and not be a "service based economy", something that the US lost their way on. I don't know how long you can draw unemployment, but it seems like it hasn't turned them into a nation of slackers .

Their income tax is staggered. Translated into dollars, and with a bit of rounding:
0% on income up to $11,000
14% on income from $11,001 - $72,000
42% on income from $72,001 - $343,000
45% over $343,001..

So, if you made $100,000/yr in Germany your tax rate would be: 17.7% In the US, your effective rate would be 21.2%

Trying to understand your table. If the tax rate for incomes from 72k to 343k is 42% then how does one making 100K pay 17.7%?

 

[rockhopper46038]

first 11K is taxed at zero
11K to 72K is taxed at 14% = $8540
72K to 100K is taxed at 42% = $11,760

Total tax = $20,300 I get an effective tax rate = 20.3%, based off the numbers in the provided table.

I don't have a point, rather than doing the math.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Trying to understand your table. If the tax rate for incomes from 72k to 343k is 42% then how does one making 100K pay 17.7%?

Only the amount between 72k and 100k (28k) is taxed at the higher rate. The other brackets are taxed at the lower rates. I didn't check his math, mind you, but that is the method the number is arrived at.

 

[NomadS]

"you eventually run out of other peoples money" is the short answer.

 

[NomadS]

a little longer answer. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cx_GDMsg54[/ame]

 

[HenryWallace]

Great thoughts out here... I do wish to add that Money, I believe, is the root of all of this evil. It subjugates us, classifies us, and becomes the one thing sought after... It's not so much happiness, or a family any more.. Money has become the only view people can see. The only path to what they want to call Happiness.

It's what then in turn creates our dependance on one another. Living in big cities would be impossible.. But living as a family on your own land and farming your own land for yourself, would mean that the fertility would abound. True freedom comes from the fact that all of your calluses on your hands would have been to your own benefit, and that of your family..

It's what we all want. You can argue that the world can't sustain so many people under free domain, but this is what the powers that be want us to believe. If we all in the US took one half of acre for our own, we could ALL live in Texas.

It's just my thought on where all of this fighting about Socialism, or Communism, or Capitalism always leads me. Find the root, don't just trim the dead br branches off.

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

first 11K is taxed at zero
11K to 72K is taxed at 14% = $8540
72K to 100K is taxed at 42% = $11,760

Total tax = $20,300 I get an effective tax rate = 20.3%, based off the numbers in the provided table.

I don't have a point, rather than doing the math.

I think I get it.

(72 - 11)*.14=8.54
(100-72)*.42=11.76

Therefore 8.54K + 11.76K =20.3K in taxes out of 100K = 20.3%. Still don't get 17.7%.

That is certainly not how the US taxes income. In the US, everything is taxed - all of it - at the income bracket.

 

[NomadS]

and finally for those wanting a hard copy The Dennis Prager Show

 

[possum_128]

What is so wrong with European socialism?

You want to know? Move over there and then get back to us. The thought that you must like the idea scares the hell out of me, and the fact that you are a gunowner just baffles me that you might really think that it's so right.

 

[ultra...good]

Were you in Soviet controlled Germany prior to reunification? Most of that certainly isn't true in modern Germany, if it ever was.

Germans can own private property, they don't "lease it from the government". Even foreigners can own land without much restriction: Buying property in Germany - how does it work?: Germany expat forum

Germans are free to choose their occupation, just like us. No one gives them a test and says "ah, you're a baker for the rest of your life" or whatever. They are free to change career fields or jobs at will, if someone will hire them, same as us.

Their unemployment is significantly less than ours, primarily due to an export based economy and a robust apprenticeship and trade school system. About 60% of high school grads go to tech schools, and they aren't looked down on like tech school vs college in the US. The Germans never forgot that they need to build things and not be a "service based economy", something that the US lost their way on. I don't know how long you can draw unemployment, but it seems like it hasn't turned them into a nation of slackers .

Their income tax is staggered. Translated into dollars, and with a bit of rounding:
0% on income up to $11,000
14% on income from $11,001 - $72,000
42% on income from $72,001 - $343,000
45% over $343,001..

So, if you made $100,000/yr in Germany your tax rate would be: 17.7% In the US, your effective rate would be 21.2%

Just relaying what I was told, by Germans that live there, that I had conversations with, while I was there. Not something I read off the internet, in some forum. If it is not true, well, what can I tell you. I guess the people I was talking with were lying to me.

 

[Libertarian01]

To Roisigns,

We have had socialism in the United States for decades. We just don't perceive it that way.

Fire department? Socialism. Police department? Socialism. Streets and roads? Socialism. Federal military? Socialism. Public schools? Socialism. Medicare & medicaid? Socialism.

Or simply - EVERY governmental department at the Federal, State, County, Parish, and City level = Socialism.

The problem is NOT with socialism but rather with our varying tolerances for it. We NEED as unbiased of a court system as we can get. Imagine if Judges were on private payrolls? It is already bad enough that the deeper pockets almost always get their way. Without a uniformly paid for court system the deeper pockets would always get their way.

Socialism is a word used to demonize the enemy so that you don't have to have a logical reasonable interactive debate regarding a complex topic. Example #1: Workers rights, employment, unions, and free market forces: Democrats/liberals are socialists bent on destroying capitalism. They are evil scum and every idea they come up with is antithesis to business. Ergo - no need to talk with them. They are just WRONG and I am right! Example #2: Gun control, violence, poverty and inner city suffering. Republicans/conservatives are heartless, self serving greedy evil scum that cling to their guns and little towns. They are ignorant and uneducated. Ergo - no need to talk to them. They are just WRONG and I am right!

When we demonize the other side we don't have to be selfcritical. Socialism isn't working in Europe. Look at how horrible their economies are! Look at Greece, Italy and Ireland. Really? Look at the United States? OVER $16 Trillion in debt today! An estimated $50 - $200 Trillion in unfunded liabilities! And this just at the Federal level. This does NOT count every State, County, Parish, and City. The capitalistic free market isn't exactly utopia over here. But as long as we demonize them we don't have to self criticize and face our own problems.

We do this in war. The enemy is evil scum that needs to be destroyed. Heaven forbid the enemy is just like us, a soldier away from their family who just wants to get home in one piece and raise their children. A person as torn from their family as you are. Kindof makes killing them harder - so we get back to evil scum who needs to be destroyed. Easy...

We have demonized Socialism because we were in a cold war with the Soviet Union. Any perceived step toward Communism (which the USSR wasn't) was demonized.

Socialism has problems, but so what? There is NO system that is void of problems. Pure free market has problems. Pure anarchy has problems. Pure Democracy has problems (we are not a pure Democracy.)

What we need to try to agree on is a system that creates an equally mild level of discomfort but that everyone can live with. Yeah, right!

Regards,

Doug

 

[DragonGunner]

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. Its inherit virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Winston Churchill

 

[RockofStrength]

When we demonize the other side we don't have to be selfcritical. Socialism isn't working in Europe. Look at how horrible their economies are! Look at Greece, Italy and Ireland. Really? Look at the United States? OVER $16 Trillion in debt today! An estimated $50 - $200 Trillion in unfunded liabilities! And this just at the Federal level. This does NOT count every State, County, Parish, and City. The capitalistic free market isn't exactly utopia over here. But as long as we demonize them we don't have to self criticize and face our own problems.



Regards,

Doug

We do not have a free market, and have not since at least FDR, if not before. The Fed, Mr. Roosevelt's policies, the continuing spiral toward government control, have turned what might have been termed a true free market into crony capitalism. See also: shareholders in the big auto companies taking it up the rear owing to the bailout not permitting proper bankruptcy payouts, hospitals and colleges being funded in part by the government choosing to give money for certain reasons, the Fed printing QEternity to prop up the stock market etc

 

[DragonGunner]

"Foreign influence is truly the Grecian horse to a REPUBLIC. We cannot be too careful to exclude its influence."

Alexander Hamilton 1793

 

[gvbcraig]

To Roisigns,

We have had socialism in the United States for decades. We just don't perceive it that way.

Fire department? Socialism. Police department? Socialism. Streets and roads? Socialism. Federal military? Socialism. Public schools? Socialism. Medicare & medicaid? Socialism.

Or simply - EVERY governmental department at the Federal, State, County, Parish, and City level = Socialism.

Socialism is a word used to demonize the enemy so that you don't have to have a logical reasonable interactive debate regarding a complex topic.

We have demonized Socialism because we were in a cold war with the Soviet Union. Any perceived step toward Communism (which the USSR wasn't) was demonized.

One item that you are missing is that in a Democracy the government works for the benefit of the people, in a socialist people work for the benefit of the government. You cannot do anything with out government approval. The sad part of this statement is, at the present time we are closer to socialism than we are to a Democracy in this country.

I have worked in Europe as well as in 40 of the 50 states. What we have in the majority of Midwestern states still resembles a Democracy compare to what goes on both coasts.

We have given up so many rights, and allowed others to control us.

 

[gvbcraig]

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. Its inherit virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

Winston Churchill

Right on the button.......