What if your attacker dies?

[Trapper Jim]

Mastering “gun play” is sometimes the handicap. Let me explain.

My issue is everyone seems to want to think “with their gun” it’s always going to be a 100% gun use incident. Your not going to ward off evil with the mere presence of a firearm and that punisher emblem clothing or truck decal.

For most the majority of time money and training is running the gun (maybe too fast as most don’t want to learn when not to shoot) you have to condition to shift gears if you will.

People who don’t or won’t consider any OC/Pepper spray or less lethal stuff are setting themselves up.

Even retired Agency guys under LEOSA I ask and 90% of them and nobody carry's any type of OC or Pepper Spray and despite how much of a John Wick Master Jedi one thinks of themselves you will see 999 out of a 1,000 incidents where some type of OC is “reasonable” force and a firearm is not!

You can’t shoot an aggressive pan handler or someone that’s just mentality off and folks throwing out that whole “I was in fear of my life” shows you have no idea of how to articulate what is “reasonable”

Get PROFESSIONAL training from vetted folks and try and take at least one class a year. As BBI suggested Mas Ayoob would be a great start and then you have an expert witness in the future

And any of the other Vetted national known instructors as well. Many of them travel throughout the country and would also be an expert witness with a documented record.

Good luck!

Absolutely agree to this. The break down however as I see it is when the grad shows up to the range wearing his gunny TShirt and his gun handling is atrocious or his equipment is junk.

This of course is on him as the instruction was sound. The commitment, diligence, effort and rounds down range falls short in many.

 

[patience0830]

In answer to the original question, "Then he won't attack me again."

 

[patience0830]

wearing his gunny TShirt and his junk handling is atrocious or his equipment is gun .

BRokeTFY. How I read it the first time.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Even retired Agency guys under LEOSA I ask and 90% of them and nobody carry's any type of OC or Pepper Spray

I don't, and didn't use it when I was in uniform. Any situation where I'm actually in danger, it's both too slow and too likely to fail. OC is to gain compliance, not fend off an attack of any sort, IMO. That said, I'm satisfied with my abilities to fend off an aggressive panhandler or the like without tools and, frankly, they tend to leave me alone anyway. I don't fault those who choose otherwise. Just be prepared for it to not work and now you're grappling with someone who's angry and spicy.

 

[Brad69]

Give them the “stare” BBI !

To the OP there are many wanna be ”trainers”. They seem to wake up one day and say I wanna be a gun instructor. Then they get a class and a instructor in a box kit and away they go.

Most of the INGO people that have posted in this thread have actually trained together and host or instruct classes. Beware anyone that claims to be an expert. It’s a matter of education and experience. Not delusions of grandeur.

That being said unless you unload 8 rounds of OO buck into someone and then do a coup de grace with a .357 in the back of the head you should be fine.

 

[ECS686]

I don't, and didn't use it when I was in uniform. Any situation where I'm actually in danger, it's both too slow and too likely to fail. OC is to gain compliance, not fend off an attack of any sort, IMO. That said, I'm satisfied with my abilities to fend off an aggressive panhandler or the like without tools and, frankly, they tend to leave me alone anyway. I don't fault those who choose otherwise. Just be prepared for it to not work and now you're grappling with someone who's angry and spicy.

I respectfully disagree. I get as an active LE you want compliance and to take into custody but as a retired guy or civilian you just need to break contact with them.

i have used OC several dozen times myself and responded and completed use of force packets on hundreds as a LT.

In the Federal Bureau of Prisons we were not issues OC of any kind LTs had access but as Chuck Haggard says harsh word and hands or some of us carried mag lights. Our staff injuries were off the hook mostly due to responding but many got injuries in fights. In 2012 they clears it for high security US Penitentiaries like Terre Haute then in 2015 everyone else. Our staff and inmate injuries dropped 70-80%z.

So that said based on my experience it has worked better than agencies with tazers. Also I spend a ton of time in Seattle and when my son is off the boat he has a great luxury apartment 3 blocks from the space needle the problem among all the high prices restaurants buisness folks dine in there are the walking dead. They have come up trying to spit on you grab you aggressive panhandling etc. all incidents where you aren’t legal to shoot (any jurisdictions but as justified as you are if you shot someone in Seattle, San Francisco etc your going to prison)

So I am a big advocate for it and one of the reasons I am hosting Chuck Haggard at Riley in October (check the training thread for info if interested)

I tried posting the video but somehow couldn’t transfer but one of many things we see in Seattle is what you deal with. A mental homeless dude having an episode and public stepping around him line us avoiding wet concrete. 2 hours after this a 120K Corvette with business executives parked right there for lunch!

So my point on the OC option is some people can’t physically repel an attacker but like anything it has its limits as you have to have easy access and proficiency it’s just there’s less to risk if you are found unreasonable with it. Like a 400 dollar misdemeanor battery charge you can probably defer and go home for the night!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I respectfully disagree. I get as an active LE you want compliance and to take into custody but as a retired guy or civilian you just need to break contact with them.

i have used OC several dozen times myself and responded and completed use of force packets on hundreds as a LT.

In the Federal Bureau of Prisons we were not issues OC of any kind LTs had access but as Chuck Haggard says harsh word and hands or some of us carried mag lights. Our staff injuries were off the hook mostly due to responding but many got injuries in fights. In 2012 they clears it for high security US Penitentiaries like Terre Haute then in 2015 everyone else. Our staff and inmate injuries dropped 70-80%z.

You misunderstand, I'm not saying I'm attempting to gain compliance if I'm off duty. My position is OC is *for* gaining compliance vs stopping an assault. I suspect most of your prison uses were the same, gaining compliance vs stopping an active assault. Probably with more than one guard present and likely with a plan for when it failed. That is what OC is for. When you have time to let it work, you have backup options ready to go, and preferably when you have friends at the ready if it doesn't.

Would you recommend a single guard being actively assault attempt to deploy OC?

So that said based on my experience it has worked better than agencies with tazers. Also I spend a ton of time in Seattle and when my son is off the boat he has a great luxury apartment 3 blocks from the space needle the problem among all the high prices restaurants buisness folks dine in there are the walking dead. They have come up trying to spit on you grab you aggressive panhandling etc. all incidents where you aren’t legal to shoot (any jurisdictions but as justified as you are if you shot someone in Seattle, San Francisco etc your going to prison)

Sounds like a reason to continue to avoid Seattle, but should I need to I'm confident in my ability to deal with and/or avoid issues without making my aggressor spicy and getting myself spicy having to go hands on if it comes to that. The sort of thing you envision using OC for, I would rather use a coin sap. Offers different levels of force (flat vs edge, different target areas), doesn't cross-contaminate you if you end up hands on, doesn't **** off everyone else in an enclosed space who you'd like to be sympathetic to you if it comes to that, etc.

Again, I don't have any issue with those who decide differently. I just want folks to realize the limitations, particularly against a determined, intoxicated, greasy individual and in differing weather conditions. Spice that dude up and get grappled, it may be worse for you. I'd rather have a small impact/poking device. Or a large one, if in uniform.

 

[NHT3]

Give them the “stare” BBI !

To the OP there are many wanna be ”trainers”. They seem to wake up one day and say I wanna be a gun instructor. Then they get a class and a instructor in a box kit and away they go.

Most of the INGO people that have posted in this thread have actually trained together and host or instruct classes. Beware anyone that claims to be an expert. It’s a matter of education and experience. Not delusions of grandeur.

That being said unless you unload 8 rounds of OO buck into someone and then do a coup de grace with a .357 in the back of the head you should be fine.

I'm not aware of any training that will certify someone as an EXPERT. Every time I hear the word my antenna go up. It's been my experience that the title "expert" is self inflicted or bestowed by someone with little or no knowledge of the subject. As you stated, it's a matter of education and experience and I think most would agree that we improve our ability to impart knowledge with every student taught. I'm still learning and don't expect that to stop until I'm planted.

 

[ECS686]

You misunderstand, I'm not saying I'm attempting to gain compliance if I'm off duty. My position is OC is *for* gaining compliance vs stopping an assault. I suspect most of your prison uses were the same, gaining compliance vs stopping an active assault. Probably with more than one guard present and likely with a plan for when it failed. That is what OC is for. When you have time to let it work, you have backup options ready to go, and preferably when you have friends at the ready if it doesn't.

Would you recommend a single guard being actively assault attempt to deploy OC?



Sounds like a reason to continue to avoid Seattle, but should I need to I'm confident in my ability to deal with and/or avoid issues without making my aggressor spicy and getting myself spicy having to go hands on if it comes to that. The sort of thing you envision using OC for, I would rather use a coin sap. Offers different levels of force (flat vs edge, different target areas), doesn't cross-contaminate you if you end up hands on, doesn't **** off everyone else in an enclosed space who you'd like to be sympathetic to you if it comes to that, etc.

Again, I don't have any issue with those who decide differently. I just want folks to realize the limitations, particularly against a determined, intoxicated, greasy individual and in differing weather conditions. Spice that dude up and get grappled, it may be worse for you. I'd rather have a small impact/poking device. Or a large one, if in uniform.

I got you always enjoy your viewpoints.

I wish and my son wishes he could get out of there but he has custody issues with a wine squad living Bernie Sanders progressive girl and I’ll stop there!

Funny story on single Officers when I started in 2000 we had one officers in each housing unit at the High USP. A couple honor dorm types had 2 but the traditional 2 person cells had 1 to 120-158 inmates. Fortunately they always seemed to go after each other as the repercussions of a staff assault was a trip to USP Marion by SORT (which I was on and saw a few elevator rides Marion staff gave but that’s another story)

So we did have occasional staff assaulted
So in 2008 an Officer was killed at USP Atwater California and some congressional groups got involved and they earmarked like 350 million to add a 2nd officer to high USP housing units. Well the director at the time (who was Warden when we executed McViegh at Terre Haute) didn’t want OC to line staff and bucked adding a 2nd officer.

Fast forward we got OC issues at High USP’s in 2012 under a new Director (the one that didn’t want to issue it retired after a DUI)

Then in 2013 an Officer was killed at USP Canaan PA and then all of congress got te involved and aksed where the money went and why no second officer they did the hot potato game and in October they added a 2nd officer (from 2pm-10pm weekdays and 6am-10pm on weekends saying other staff like counselors and secretaries were in the unit during buisness houses)

Then in 2016 they caught more heat and now have designated 2nd officers in High USP housing units 24/7.

Around 2015 they opened up the OC and issues it to everybody so at Medium and Low FCI’s they have one officer in their housing units. So they do use OC by themselves the saving grace is not that bad stuff doesn’t ever happen at a Medium or low FCI but they don’t happen that much. It’s not uncommon for someone in a low to go 10 years without seeing a simple fist fight where USPs is a gladiator school and we averaged 400 and some incidents a year including murders OD’s suicides and I have seen some brutal blunt force trama where they should of died!

Unlike a street LEO we don’t jump right in we call what we have “multiple inmates fighting weapons involved” or “1 on 1 fight” we spray them let them bake waiting til the Calvary gets there when we have the numbers we junpni. 1on1 at the minimum. Then de contamination medical assessments of staff and inmates, blood spill orderlies to clean up the mess etc etc

No if it’s an all out staff assault all bets are off any means necessary so your not (or shouldn’t be worried) about the UOF continuum . Why most of us that cut our teeth in the 80’s and 90’s had the 3 and 4 cell mag lights even on Days!!!!

So my experience with OC it shut down a lot of bad dudes majority of the time I only saw a couple guys eat it. One guy took a full fire extinguisher size can of it I emptied in his cell at 3 or 4 2 second bursts. That cell was orange everywhere but his silhouette on the back wall and looked like a bugs bunny cartoon (and I’m not joking)

 

[JCSR]

I'm no Expert but..................at 70 years of age, 5'8" and 165# I'm not spraying a perp with OC or slapping them up side the head.
I'm still pretty quick on my feet so making distance will be my first priority. If that doesn't work I will shoot to stop the threat if possible.

"A Man's Got To Know His Limitations."

 

[Trapper Jim]

Give them the “stare” BBI !

To the OP there are many wanna be ”trainers”. They seem to wake up one day and say I wanna be a gun instructor. Then they get a class and a instructor in a box kit and away they go.

Most of the INGO people that have posted in this thread have actually trained together and host or instruct classes. Beware anyone that claims to be an expert. It’s a matter of education and experience. Not delusions of grandeur.

That being said unless you unload 8 rounds of OO buck into someone and then do a coup de grace with a .357 in the back of the head you should be fine.

Yep. The financial success of any trainer is not often the best indicator of teaching talent.

Years ago I hosted pistol matches to all trainers and trainers only. The numbers in participation dwindled as the humility rose.

We finally stopped when we got request from trainers to not publish their scores.

Insecurity can often be a clue to inadequacies.

 

[Amishman44]

You shoot to stop the threat. Do whatever it takes.

Use justified or reasonable force necessary to stop the active threat...Yes!
One thing to keep in mind, and in keeping one's eye on the ball, is that if you're using a firearm to protect yourself, someone you love, or a third party (should the situation arise) that the defense of yourself or a loved one is the priority 'in the moment'.
It's only after all defensive action(s) has ceased, and yourself or loved ones have been checked fully for any physical wounds (and possibly moved to a safe location), that's when concern for the aggressor's well-being comes into play.

 

[1775usmarine]

If they die I thought it was shovel and shut up?

 

[NHT3]

Yep. The financial success of any trainer is not often the best indicator of teaching talent.

Years ago I hosted pistol matches to all trainers and trainers only. The numbers in participation dwindled as the humility rose.

We finally stopped when we got request from trainers to not publish their scores.

Insecurity can often be a clue to inadequacies.

Also a common theme when Coach was running the Carry gun matches. The I got this s**t "operators" tended to fold like a $5 lawn chair with a timer running and 25 participants watching. Finishing in the teens with their name and scores published, it encouraged a few but usually they ghosted the match after that.

 

[FreeLand]

In the Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob
&
The Law of Self Defense Principles by Andrew Branca

Andrew Branca has a podcast that is informative.

 

[bgcatty]

So what if the attacker dies, no real loss!
At least he won’t attack again.

 

[ECS686]

Yep. The financial success of any trainer is not often the best indicator of teaching talent.

Years ago I hosted pistol matches to all trainers and trainers only. The numbers in participation dwindled as the humility rose.

We finally stopped when we got request from trainers to not publish their scores.

Insecurity can often be a clue to inadequacies.

Competitions while fun don’t paint the real picture. Here’s why (and I have been a Match Director and IDPA SO as well as ran some CCW matches and attempted to set up a club)

It’s caused a go fast mentality where speed is more important than accuracy. The first question most people ask at the end of a stage is “what’s my time” and they don’t care about no penalty MIKE’s just if they were faster!

Or you have “that guy” that demands an overlay or looks for reasons someone in their division should be given a procedural and he should have a re shoot because he didn’t like his run, all cry baby stuff

That is why trainers get tired of the loudmouths at matches not everyone but that beat on the chest mentality.

You know who has really has faired well in shootings? The guys and gals that train at tight par times like the 5 yard round up or double up assessment on a B8. The ones that consistently score 80 or more.

As Darryl Bolke has said. Anyone that shoots the casino drill at 21 seconds you are a good shooter but doing it in 10 seconds cool but you have practiced that and only that. 5x5x5 drill on a playing card anything under the 5 seconds is good the people that do it in 2.0 either shoot it til they get there OR (what I have seen) it’s the 10th run of the day. Same with the dudes that claim 100 on a Bakersfield while they shot it 10 times the same day to get it. It prob nothing but ego patting!

So if you want to be a masterful technical shooter at USPSA and IDPA God bless you that don’t mean **** in the real world. Consistent tight par time shooters do Better with less rounds fired.

 

[Tactically Fat]

So if you want to be a masterful technical shooter at USPSA and IDPA God bless you that don’t mean **** in the real world. Consistent tight par time shooters do Better with less rounds fired.

Gotta have time to assess between shots...

 

[ECS686]

Gotta have time to assess between shots...

Yup. LAPD SWAT one of the best in the nation has a .50 split standard and they don’t miss. But to hear the Practoscore warriors and Technical Shooters if you don’t have jail bait split times (Bryan Eastridge coined
That LOL) of .16 it’s horrible. Problem you can’t asses faster than .33-.40 depending on study on if that 2nd, 3rd or whatever shot is legal or too much.

If we are honest we have all tried to go so fast in a match we all have had a bad delta in USPSA or -3 in IDPA or even a miss at 3-5 or 7 yards

 

[JD1966]

No, I do not train to shoot "center mass". Not since the 90's. And no, I wouldn't say chances are they will expire. Emergency medical care is miraculous these days. I don't understand the question though.

I would have to say that you must be using the wrong caliber.