What if your attacker dies?

[Combat Engineer]

I've been in a spirited discussion on another (USCCA) forum. Do we not all train to shoot center mass? Do not some of us train to shoot in the head provided that the center mass shot miraculously doesn't kill (stop)the attacker? Chances are the attacker being shot with hp self defense ammo is going to die if you hit his heart or lungs...so why am I being told the way I train is premeditated murder? Those guys seem to preach at the alter of the mag dump anyway.....I think it's a waste of ammo.

 

[INgunowner]

Use the least amount of force necessary to break contact with a perceived threat and de-escalate the violent situation in a timely manner.

YMMV

 

[JCSR]

You shoot to stop the threat. Do whatever it takes.

 

[NHT3]

Stop the threat is the goal and center mass is not the play, Top 7 on the target. Shut down the nervous system for inactivity. To answer your question if the perp dies they die. It's always a possibility when you are sending projectiles downrange.

 

[cedartop]

No, I do not train to shoot "center mass". Not since the 90's. And no, I wouldn't say chances are they will expire. Emergency medical care is miraculous these days. I don't understand the question though.

 

[Nugget]

... if the perp dies they die...

 

[BehindBlueI's]

so why am I being told the way I train is premeditated murder?

Largely because you're listening to a moron with zero understanding of how the law works or what premeditated murder means.

Use the least amount of force necessary to break contact with a perceived threat and de-escalate the violent situation in a timely manner.

YMMV

In a general life advice sense, sure. In a legal what's "premeditated murder" sense, no. There is no least amount of force standard because it requires a crystal ball and/or hindsight. If I punch you, would an open handed slap have sufficed? Would a shove have? Would one more "get back" have done it?

The standard is reasonable force.

 

[JTKelly]

As long as they are moving, they are a threat. Keep shooting until the threat is eliminated.

Tuco rule: when you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.

You can't shoot if they are NOT a threat, but while they ARE a threat shoot all you can. We aren't here to conserve ammunition. We are hear to save our life.

 

[INP8riot]

Yeah I'm not putting a round in his direction and then waiting to see what happens because at over $1 per self protection round is too rich for my blood. Most incidents happen quick and in close quarters. No time to line up that perfect shot like you're at the range. Awkward body position , lack of being mentally prepared, etc will make a great shooter miss a lot. More rounds = better chance of stopping the threat.

 

[ECS686]

I say this as a retired LE Trainer and I have been mirandized when I worked for the Feds twice in my career in use of force stuff. I also am a Rangemaster Advance instructor and someone that hosts and takes course from Spaulding, Weems Hearne Haggard Rangemaster Bolke Eastridge and more.

What gets overlooked is any force has to be deemed “reasonable”

So I would take any “advice” or comments from a forum with a grain of salt unless they can articulate their message in a way there is not much doubt they probably are not regurgitated other BE timers.

That said go to a variety of PROFESSIONAL classes like Ramgemaster, Hearn Bolke Weems Ellifritz Bolke etc. and I say this as a retired agency guy that taught at the Federal LE training center that agencies even miss the mark on training!

Good luck

 

[nagantoid]

Largely because you're listening to a moron with zero understanding of how the law works or what premeditated murder means.

Wellll.... hold up there a sec. Going back to Fidonet days (if you know what that means, you know how old I am) - there were discussions about how even just choosing JHP ammo for your EDC might be considered "premeditation". Dumber arguments have won in court. The gist of those discussions was "Your Honor, he deliberately loaded MAN-KILLER bullets into his gun because he was preemptively itching for a fight".

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Wellll.... hold up there a sec. Going back to Fidonet days (if you know what that means, you know how old I am) - there were discussions about how even just choosing JHP ammo for your EDC might be considered "premeditation". Dumber arguments have won in court. The gist of those discussions was "Your Honor, he deliberately loaded MAN-KILLER bullets into his gun because he was preemptively itching for a fight".

I have significant experience in this space and don't really care what lore has been tossed around online for decades by people who have limited to no exposure to a homicide investigation, presentation to prosecutors, criminal trial, or civil trial as a participant, investigator, prosecutor, or defense attorney.

JHP is not a concern. It's such an easy argument to overcome nobody makes it, unless maybe you're in NJ where it's illegal to begin with.

If one would like to pay for some of the best instruction publicly available on the topic: https://massadayoobgroup.com/mag-40/ would be my first recommendation. Mas is pricey, but he will also be an expert witness for you should it come to that, so calculate that value in.

I don't teach any longer because I can't be bothered to, TBH, but I've put a ton of free info on the topic on this forum and some other places over the years for anyone who wishes to search for it.

 

[darkon256]

The law is pretty straightforward honestly. Here is the most relevant subsections but I would read the whole section too.

Indiana Code 35-41-3-2 (C) - (D):

" (c) A person is justified in using reasonable force against any other person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force.  However, a person: (1) is justified in using deadly force;  and (2) does not have a duty to retreat; if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony.  No person, employer, or estate of a person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.

(d) A person: (1) is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against any other person;  and (2) does not have a duty to retreat; if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry of or attack on the person's dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle."

Link to full section:

Indiana General Assembly

Website for Indiana's General Assembly

iga.in.gov

 

[Mgderf]

If the attacker dies, there is one undeniable fact.
They won't do that again.

 

[bobzilla]

If the attacker dies, there is one undeniable fact.
They won't do that again.

Finally helping reduce the recidivism rate.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Good luck referencing all this in the seconds of threat and yes that’s why we train however one might want to master gun play first.

Otherwise, the worry on your brain of shooting insurance, kneecap targets, prosecutors and other distress will more than likely be the last of your brain drain as you bleed out on the street.

 

[mrunnebo]

It is a binary decision. Is lethal force justified or not? Is there a threat or perceived threat of serious bodily injury or loss of life? Pulling the trigger, no matter where you are aiming or what bullets you have loaded, is using lethal force. People have died from leg shots with FMJ rounds. If I’m using lethal force, I’m shooting to kill, center mass or head. Shooting to kill is the most effective way to stop the threat. A key thing to remember though (and what probably causes the most legal trouble) is once the threat stops being a threat, you can not keep shooting.

 

[OneBadV8]

dial 811

 

[Nugget]

dial 811

You mean 911... 811 is the number you call to see if it's safe to dig a large hole in your yard.......... oh wait, carry on.

 

[ECS686]

Good luck referencing all this in the seconds of threat and yes that’s why we train however one might want to master gun play first.

Otherwise, the worry on your brain of shooting insurance, kneecap targets, prosecutors and other distress will more than likely be the last of your brain drain as you bleed out on the street.

Mastering “gun play” is sometimes the handicap. Let me explain.

My issue is everyone seems to want to think “with their gun” it’s always going to be a 100% gun use incident. Your not going to ward off evil with the mere presence of a firearm and that punisher emblem clothing or truck decal.

For most the majority of time money and training is running the gun (maybe too fast as most don’t want to learn when not to shoot) you have to condition to shift gears if you will.

People who don’t or won’t consider any OC/Pepper spray or less lethal stuff are setting themselves up.

Even retired Agency guys under LEOSA I ask and 90% of them and nobody carry's any type of OC or Pepper Spray and despite how much of a John Wick Master Jedi one thinks of themselves you will see 999 out of a 1,000 incidents where some type of OC is “reasonable” force and a firearm is not!

You can’t shoot an aggressive pan handler or someone that’s just mentality off and folks throwing out that whole “I was in fear of my life” shows you have no idea of how to articulate what is “reasonable”

Get PROFESSIONAL training from vetted folks and try and take at least one class a year. As BBI suggested Mas Ayoob would be a great start and then you have an expert witness in the future

And any of the other Vetted national known instructors as well. Many of them travel throughout the country and would also be an expert witness with a documented record.

Good luck!