What does the law say?

[kludge]

(directed at no on in particular)

So how do I know which punch or kick is going to cause irreversable brain damage? Or a ruptured spleen? Or a broken neck? Or death?

I've been hit in the head before. With puches, baseballs, bricks, and floors (don't ask).

How do I know that while I'm in a daze or down from that hit, that he's going to "fight fair", and stop when I'm down?

Being hit while standing is one thing, but if that hit takes you down, and you are on the ground being punched and kicked, you are in dire circumstances. Any one of those blows could mean death.

 

[shibumiseeker]

If you are drunk, pick a fight, are getting your butt kicked and whip out your gun, good luck in front of that jury.

That one is actually pretty clear cut, if you started the situation and escalated it, you cannot escalate further to lethal force without facing legal jeopardy.

Another area is that if your buddy is drinking and starts a fight with someone else and starts getting the crap beat out of him and you pull out a gun and shoot the other person you are in pretty serious trouble for that as well.

 

[lovemachine]

IC 35-41-3-2: [...]No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.
De-escalation is fine, but you can't use your gun as a bargaining chip - you can only pull it if you think you or a third party are in danger of death or serious bodily injury. Again, the standard is reasonable. If my grandma chooses to smack you around for cursing in church, you probably can't shoot her. If Stephen Hawking wants to go a round of fisticuffs with you over your theories on quantum mechanics, you probably can't shoot him. If any able-bodied person expresses a threat to beat you senseless, you may be justified in shooting him.

The code says this:

and

So you can't point your gun at him? So if he's bigger than you and no matter what wants to knock you out, you pull your gun out at him. You decide not to shoot, but only want to threaten him to back down. I'll go to prison 'cause I didn't shoot him? But because I pointed my gun at him?

 

[Joe Williams]

So you can't point your gun at him? So if he's bigger than you and no matter what wants to knock you out, you pull your gun out at him. You decide not to shoot, but only want to threaten him to back down. I'll go to prison 'cause I didn't shoot him? But because I pointed my gun at him?

Not if you can convince the cops, or the jury if need be, that you had a reasonable need to use force... if you point your gun at someone, it had best be in a situation where firing it would be justifiable.

 

[shibumiseeker]

So you can't point your gun at him? So if he's bigger than you and no matter what wants to knock you out, you pull your gun out at him. You decide not to shoot, but only want to threaten him to back down. I'll go to prison 'cause I didn't shoot him? But because I pointed my gun at him?

The answer is probably not, but there is a possibility.

Again, it all depends on how the police and the prosecutor want to play it. Do that around here and the cop taking the statement probably won't blink an eye. Do that in a gun unfriendly area with a zealous DA who wants to make examples then you may be in trouble. You'd probably beat it in a jury trial if you had a good lawyer though.


It all boils down to life isn't fair and sometimes situations just suck no matter what you do.

 

[Rob377]

So you can't point your gun at him? So if he's bigger than you and no matter what wants to knock you out, you pull your gun out at him. You decide not to shoot, but only want to threaten him to back down. I'll go to prison 'cause I didn't shoot him? But because I pointed my gun at him?

So you ask what the law says, and when people tell you, you argue with them?

It's right there. If you're whipping it out without using that common sense, i.e. acting unreasonably, then yes, you will likely go to jail. Just like any of the jokers in this state that decide they're going to pull their gun because someone cut them off or was tailgating them.

If you pull it because someone is coming at you with a knife or bat, or is kicking you in the head while you're on the ground, you're fine.

Common sense.

 

[GIJEW]

Non lethal defense equipment like OC spray, stun guns, etc. could provide some middle ground between fists&feet and clubs/knives/guns.
I think the distinction between fists and feet being contact weapons is just as vague as the law! Leave if you can, but I wouldn't bother running. If the attack is that imminent, running will expose your back to attack or encourage your attacker(s).

 

[lovemachine]

So you ask what the law says, and when people tell you, you argue with them?

It's right there. If you're whipping it out without using that common sense, i.e. acting unreasonably, then yes, you will likely go to jail. Just like any of the jokers in this state that decide they're going to pull their gun because someone cut them off or was tailgating them.

If you pull it because someone is coming at you with a knife or bat, or is kicking you in the head while you're on the ground, you're fine.

Common sense.

I'm not arguiing with anybody here. It was a question. I'm not one of those jokers in this state that you just mentioned either. If you think I'm trying to argue with anybody on here, then just don't respond. Because like I said, it was just a question. I'm just trying to understand what the law says.

 

[Bubba]

So you can't point your gun at him? So if he's bigger than you and no matter what wants to knock you out, you pull your gun out at him. You decide not to shoot, but only want to threaten him to back down. I'll go to prison 'cause I didn't shoot him? But because I pointed my gun at him?

It's been danced around but just to be clear. If you pull your gun you are not required to shoot. However, if you pull your gun it needs to be in a situation where you could legally shoot.

P.S. dang it, I'm really behind the response cycle. I gotta stop doing this at work

edit:

I'm not arguiing with anybody here. It was a question. I'm not one of those jokers in this state that you just mentioned either. If you think I'm trying to argue with anybody on here, then just don't respond. Because like I said, it was just a question. I'm just trying to understand what the law says.

I don't feel you are being argumentative, but if you are looking for the law to give you a black-and-white distinction on when to draw, you're not gonna get it. The law needs to be vague in this case to provide for the thousands of small factors that influence whether use of force is reasonable in any given encounter.

 

[Eddie]

If you ever have to shoot someone, you should assume that you are going to be charged with a crime and that you are going to be sued. No matter how legit the shoot is, assume that you are going to be arrested and later sued civilly and act accordingly. The police are going to investigate, they are going to take your gun. They are going to read you your rights and ask you for a statement. Everything you did before and after you fired your gun will be scrutinized. Attorneys will be looking at what was said, who threw the first punch, and how you made your decisions. Yes, it will suck. Even if you are completely in the right it is going to suck for a while as everyone investigates you. If you were truly firing because you thought that is what you had to do to preserve life, then all of the scrutiny will be worth it.

 

[Rob377]

I'm not arguiing with anybody here. It was a question. I'm not one of those jokers in this state that you just mentioned either. If you think I'm trying to argue with anybody on here, then just don't respond. Because like I said, it was just a question. I'm just trying to understand what the law says.

Never said you were one of them. Just using them as an example of "unreasonable" behavior in which someone pulls a gun where they would not be legally justified in using it. I've seen these type of people a few times in my line of work.

Like Bubba said earlier, you can't use it as a bargaining chip.


ETA: apologies for assuming you meant to be argumentative. The interweb doesn't transmit tone very well.

 

[lovemachine]

That's why I was asking. I don't want to do anything illegal. I want to stay legal, but not get myself beat up or killed in the process.

 

[Rob377]

That's why I was asking. I don't want to do anything illegal. I want to stay legal, but not get myself beat up or killed in the process.

That's where we're all at

The law is vague on this in order to allow wiggle room to determine whether you were acting reasonably in the situation given all the millions and millions of possible twists that could come up. You won't find a bright, narrow line rule.
Your common sense is going to be your absolute best asset for determining whether you're on the right side of that fuzzy line.

 

[lovemachine]

So really, this is where the argument open carry vs concealed wins. Open carry is the way to go. That way, the big doofus who wants to start something, sees that your carrying, and decides it would be smarter to leave you alone.

I need a better open carry holster now....

 

[IndyGunSafety]

You must show "real and reasonable fear" of great bodily injury or death. Remember, a prosecutor is going to be trying to convince a jury your fear was not reasonable. Your lawyer will be trying to do the oposite. It all comes down to WHAT THE JURY BELIEVES is reasonable.

I'm not sure what Indiana case law is here, but I know in other states "scratches and scrapes from a scuffle" do not meet the threashold for reasonable fear of great bodily injury or death. (Thats directly from the Ohio CCW handbook.)

So everybody has to make their own decision here. I would try to escape in a case like this and if he followed I would re-evaluate. If I didn't cause the situation nobody is going to beat me. I'm not going to risk my life thinking about the law.

It's a good question. Worth giving some thought.

 

[Joe Williams]

So really, this is where the argument open carry vs concealed wins. Open carry is the way to go. That way, the big doofus who wants to start something, sees that your carrying, and decides it would be smarter to leave you alone.

I need a better open carry holster now....

OTOH, big drunk dufus may think he'd look mighty tough to his friends if he could kick your rear and take your gun, causing that OC'd gun to become the reason for the fight, whereas a CC'd gun wouldn't have attracted his attention.

Just to keep things from getting too easy for you

 

[lovemachine]

OTOH, big drunk dufus may think he'd look mighty tough to his friends if he could kick your rear and take your gun, causing that OC'd gun to become the reason for the fight, whereas a CC'd gun wouldn't have attracted his attention.

Just to keep things from getting too easy for you

Thanks a lot Joe! It was just starting to get easy and more understandable. Not anymore....

 

[shibumiseeker]

Thanks a lot Joe! It was just starting to get easy and more understandable. Not anymore....

You want easy and understandable, get into quantuum physics, steer clear of Law.

 

[DRob]

It ain't rocket surgery

I was afraid for my life! I was afraid for my life! I was afraid for my life! I was afraid for my life! I was afraid for my life! I was afraid for my life! I was afraid for my life! ..........................

I think we're making this more difficult than necessary. You could print out this whole thread, memorize it, and carry it with you all the time or you could write the above phrase on the blackboard 500 times!

 

[infidel]

Don't forget either, that if you decide to take the beating because you would rather do that instead of shoot someone, even though you are sure you will be at the losing end of the fight, that there is a chance that your gun will end up in his possession.

Also consider if you are with someone else, say your daughter or wife. You might be more inclined to use your weapon because if you lose the fight, they would be very vulnerable.

All in all, there are over 100,000,000 possible situations. You have to use your gut instincts. Just remember the saying," It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6". Don't let the fear of law prevent you from saving a life.