What Do You Like / What Ticks You Off About FFLs?

[ryan3030]

The whole FFL thing is stuck in the 60s. This is the internet age.

I propose a different method.

You find a gun you like online, you purchase it and as part of the online checkout process and when payment is done, it transfers it to the BATFE website. You type in all that info you write on that form each time, then the BATFE computer does it's thing and says yea or ney. Then sends you back to the dealer website to finish the process. Heck maybe we could even save the info with a passworded login.

Perhaps even a printout you can take to the gunshop for a clearance to buy firearms that day.

Nah that makes too much freaking sense. I mean it's not like the FCC (another government regulatory body) doesn't already do this sort of thing with the stuff they manage.

It'd take them 30 years to build the web app and establish the process

 

[downzero]

It'd take them 30 years to build the web app and establish the process

Something about a computer being incapable of verifying your identity makes this impractical.

 

[CountryBoy19]

The whole FFL thing is stuck in the 60s. This is the internet age.

I propose a different method.

You find a gun you like online, you purchase it and as part of the online checkout process and when payment is done, it transfers it to the BATFE website. You type in all that info you write on that form each time, then the BATFE computer does it's thing and says yea or ney. Then sends you back to the dealer website to finish the process. Heck maybe we could even save the info with a passworded login.

Perhaps even a printout you can take to the gunshop for a clearance to buy firearms that day.

Nah that makes too much freaking sense. I mean it's not like the FCC (another government regulatory body) doesn't already do this sort of thing with the stuff they manage.

As it currently stands the records of your transfers are held by the dealer and only given to the ATF upon request or if the dealer goes out of business. When they're given to the ATF they are in paper form and they have to manually sort through it all to find what they're looking for. You're proposing we give them all of the data up-front in digital form so it's easily discoverable by name, by firearm type, by caliber etc etc so if they ever desire to create a registry or ban a certain caliber/type of firearm etc all they have to do is punch it in and it spits out a list of every single person that owns one of those? Nah, I'll pass, I think we're better off the way it is...

Something about a computer being incapable of verifying your identity makes this impractical.

They do it for everything else... heck my 'identity' is verified online multiple times every year for various banking purposes, licensing purposes (buy hunting license online), BMV purposes etc... there are fairly solid ways of confirming ID's. IMHO the only way to bypass that is to do an "internet based straw purchase" whereas a person enter their information for another. The only downside to that is that the dealer can't visually detect the "flags" or "warning signs" of a straw purchase...

 

[jaybird_123]

I worked in a gunshop for a while. You would not believe how many times people came in asking for transfer and were paying MORE than they would have paying our normal prices. I was real gentle about it. All we asked for was an opportunity to review the purchase to see if we could better it. If not, the transfer went through.

I understand that, if you have the same weapon on hand. But if you dont have the same gun, you are going to have to order it anyway, same as I would. Usually, internet pricing is better. If I`m wrong, please tell me , i`d love to get my purchases cheaper locally, for better than I can on line.

 

[greyhound47]

Everyone knows that "profit" is part of doing business, but if they think you're ripping them off, they go elsewhere. I don't see how that is a problem, roll your eyes all you want.

My point is there is no REASONABLE or UNREASONABLE profit. The MARKET decides what happens. You put a high price on, people go elsewhere and your business fails. Profits are determined by your performance as a business and the direct correlation to customer satisfaction.

 

[CountryBoy19]

My point is there is no REASONABLE or UNREASONABLE profit. The MARKET decides what happens. You put a high price on, people go elsewhere and your business fails. Profits are determined by your performance as a business and the direct correlation to customer satisfaction.

And you think "reasonable profit" is a bad term to use for that? I think it fits perfectly. If people think you're making an "unreasonable profit" (ie, prices are too high) for the service you provide then they will go elsewhere just as we've said. That tells me that in the customer's mind there is a threshold in profit margin that can be crossed from what he believes is reasonable to what he believes is unreasonable, at which point he will take his business elsewhere.

What would be a better term, "market determined profit"? "fair market profit margin"? I thought "reasonable profit" fit perfectly. I'm not trying to be a jerk, just trying to figure out why you disagree with that term. The "vibe" you were giving me was that you don't feel the customer should be able to determine what is "reasonable" and what is "unreasonable" and that is left to the dealer. However, the customer makes that decision every single day in everything he buys. He may or may not know the actual profit amount, but he can gauge the bottom-line price against the service/product provided and determine if he wants to search elsewhere for a better price.

 

[Sturmgebear]

FFLs and Capitalism

My point is there is no REASONABLE or UNREASONABLE profit. The MARKET decides what happens. You put a high price on, people go elsewhere and your business fails. Profits are determined by your performance as a business and the direct correlation to customer satisfaction.

I like the direction here... bottom line is that a firearms dealership is subject to the same market pressures as any other enterprise. Interestingly, though, I have found that I tend to have different expections regarding those from whom I purchase my firearms. These expections - courtesy, fairness, reasonableness, familiarity with the products being sold - are not necessarily applied to other vendors. This is what I wanted to explore with this post and everyone is adding some insight. Thanks to all.

 

[greyhound47]

And you think "reasonable profit" is a bad term to use for that? I think it fits perfectly. If people think you're making an "unreasonable profit" (ie, prices are too high) for the service you provide then they will go elsewhere just as we've said. That tells me that in the customer's mind there is a threshold in profit margin that can be crossed from what he believes is reasonable to what he believes is unreasonable, at which point he will take his business elsewhere.

What would be a better term, "market determined profit"? "fair market profit margin"? I thought "reasonable profit" fit perfectly. I'm not trying to be a jerk, just trying to figure out why you disagree with that term. The "vibe" you were giving me was that you don't feel the customer should be able to determine what is "reasonable" and what is "unreasonable" and that is left to the dealer. However, the customer makes that decision every single day in everything he buys. He may or may not know the actual profit amount, but he can gauge the bottom-line price against the service/product provided and determine if he wants to search elsewhere for a better price.

You need a person to stand back and determine what is reasonable and unreasonable according to his or her own personal conceptions. My point is that the market determines what the profit is going to be; there is no reasonable-ness about it.

 

[CountryBoy19]

You need a person to stand back and determine what is reasonable and unreasonable according to his or her own personal conceptions. My point is that the market determines what the profit is going to be; there is no reasonable-ness about it.

We will just have to agree to disagree then...

 

[Michiana]

Good site for FFL's

I have not read the regs and more experienced FFLs who mightbe reading this thread may have some insight; but the conversation with ATF wassobering.
[/QUOTE]

There is a good forum just for FFL's and I would be happy to give you the link in a IM if you are interested. Most non FFL's don't have a clue what it takes in time to do a transfer or multiple transfers, all they see is what you do while they are sitting in front of you. It takes the same amount of time to transfer a $59 stripped lower as it does to transfer a $5,000 custom shotgun. Buy your lowers locally and you won't have to pay the transfer fee.

If any person thinks the local FFL's are making a fortune off of them go out and get your own license and get on the gravy train.

 

[Wannabe Alchemist]

I like the direction here... bottom line is that a firearms dealership is subject to the same market pressures as any other enterprise. Interestingly, though, I have found that I tend to have different expections regarding those from whom I purchase my firearms. These expections - courtesy, fairness, reasonableness, familiarity with the products being sold - are not necessarily applied to other vendors. This is what I wanted to explore with this post and everyone is adding some insight. Thanks to all.

If we expect more from them, we might expect to pay more for their efforts.
Thanks for starting this thread...good topic.

 

[Wannabe Alchemist]

There is a good forum just for FFL's and I would be happy to give you the link in a IM if you are interested. Most non FFL's don't have a clue what it takes in time to do a transfer or multiple transfers, all they see is what you do while they are sitting in front of you. It takes the same amount of time to transfer a $59 stripped lower as it does to transfer a $5,000 custom shotgun. Buy your lowers locally and you won't have to pay the transfer fee.

If any person thinks the local FFL's are making a fortune off of them go out and get your own license and get on the gravy train.[/QUOTE]

I am trying to learn more about FFL's and how to obtain one. I would appreciate that link if you wouldn't mind sending it.
Thanks

 

[Spike_351]

Layaway is also yor friend if possible. These days it can br hard for folks to come up with the cash all at.once.

 

[Michiana]

It is a forum for active license holders only.

Right, and that isn't much time except in some of the rare exceptions you listed above. How many times will you be transferring multiples of a firearm that fits that exception? It would be a very rare instance, and IF it ever happens chalk it up to the cost of doing business and keeping a customer. MOST transfers are quick and clean. When you consider the totality of the situation you will see that there isn't much added cost in doing multiple transfers at the same time.

Buyer comes in and asks you to fax or mail FFL to XYZ. You spend 15 minutes talking to buyer, bsing etc.
You spend 5 minutes faxing/mailing FFL
You spend 5 minutes receiving the shipment (or if you have to pick it up you spend more than that)
In most cases you spend about 1 minute per firearm logging information (as you noted there are exceptions)
You spend 5 minutes looking up the ph# of the buyer and calling him to tell him his gun is in.
He arrives and you spend 15-30 minutes with customer filling out 4473 and calling into NICS. Each additional firearm adds 1 extra minute maximum to filling out the 4473 part.

So in totality for 1 firearm you invested: 46-61 minutes of your time, a single fax/stamp, possibly a trip to pick up that days firearms shipments (mostly applies to kitchen table FFLs that don't get after-hours deliveries and they have to pick them up at the hub), a phone call to the buyer, a phone call to NICS, a single 4473

In totality for 5 firearm you invested: 55-70 minutes of your time, a single fax/stamp, possibly a trip to pick up that days firearms shipments, a phone call to the buyer, a phone call to NICS, a single 4473

Most of the "investment" in doing a transfer is a fixed cost or time investment so adding extra serial numbers doesn't add much to the cost.

You may disagree with me. That's fine. I've been there, done that.

Treat me fairly and I treat you fairly. I'm very loyal to a single "small shop in the corner of my barn" gunshop in NE IN because they treat me very fairly. I once had 15 AR lowers transfered at the same time and he only charged me $30 total. All SN's were consecutive so it was really easy to go down the list and jot down all the SN's and info on the 4473 and the bound book. Setting a very fair price will gain you much more business in the end, even if that means eating some lost time when that very rare exception comes in and it's a hassle to log into the book etc.

There is a good forum just for FFL's and I would be happy to give you the link in a IM if you are interested. Most non FFL's don't have a clue what it takes in time to do a transfer or multiple transfers, all they see is what you do while they are sitting in front of you. It takes the same amount of time to transfer a $59 stripped lower as it does to transfer a $5,000 custom shotgun. Buy your lowers locally and you won't have to pay the transfer fee.

If any person thinks the local FFL's are making a fortune off of them go out and get your own license and get on the gravy train.

I am trying to learn more about FFL's and how to obtain one. I would appreciate that link if you wouldn't mind sending it.
Thanks[/QUOTE]

This forum is for people in the business who hold a active FFL so you would not be able to get access to it. There is a lot of good info on the net if you search.

 

[Wannabe Alchemist]

I am trying to learn more about FFL's and how to obtain one. I would appreciate that link if you wouldn't mind sending it.
Thanks

This forum is for people in the business who hold a active FFL so you would not be able to get access to it. There is a lot of good info on the net if you search.[/QUOTE]

Thanks anyway

 

[IndyDave1776]

First application is $200 for a three year license.

Then $90 for a three year renewal. $30/year isn't bad.

I take it the effort to change this failed. My understanding was that it was going to increase significantly, but I lost track of the subject in the pre-internet days and if fell off my radar.

 

[Audie Murphy]

Is this really all your going to post in every thread you comment on?

 

[w_ADAM_d88]

Nice to see FFL's taking part in the price gouging too...

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...es/267603-new_sog_armory_stripped_lowers.html