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What Do You Like / What Ticks You Off About FFLs?
- Thread starter Sturmgebear
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I had the same arrangement with my FFL in another city whereI was living. My online milsurppurchasing volume was becoming a nuisance...
However, when I discussed this practice with the local ATFagent during my FFL interview, he advised that this procedure was prohibited; thatI was not permitted to provide a copy of my license to any third party fortheir independent use, for any reason; that I was never to sign the “original”FFL license certificate; and that I was required to make a separate copy andthen sign, date and dispatch a certificate for each transfer.
I have not read the regs and more experienced FFLs who mightbe reading this thread may have some insight; but the conversation with ATF wassobering.
I had the same arrangement with my FFL in another city whereI was living. My online milsurppurchasing volume was becoming a nuisance...
However, when I discussed this practice with the local ATFagent during my FFL interview, he advised that this procedure was prohibited; thatI was not permitted to provide a copy of my license to any third party fortheir independent use, for any reason; that I was never to sign the “original”FFL license certificate; and that I was required to make a separate copy andthen sign, date and dispatch a certificate for each transfer.
I have not read the regs and more experienced FFLs who mightbe reading this thread may have some insight; but the conversation with ATF wassobering.
CountryBoy19
Grandmaster
Right, and that isn't much time except in some of the rare exceptions you listed above. How many times will you be transferring multiples of a firearm that fits that exception? It would be a very rare instance, and IF it ever happens chalk it up to the cost of doing business and keeping a customer. MOST transfers are quick and clean. When you consider the totality of the situation you will see that there isn't much added cost in doing multiple transfers at the same time.
Buyer comes in and asks you to fax or mail FFL to XYZ. You spend 15 minutes talking to buyer, bsing etc.
You spend 5 minutes faxing/mailing FFL
You spend 5 minutes receiving the shipment (or if you have to pick it up you spend more than that)
In most cases you spend about 1 minute per firearm logging information (as you noted there are exceptions)
You spend 5 minutes looking up the ph# of the buyer and calling him to tell him his gun is in.
He arrives and you spend 15-30 minutes with customer filling out 4473 and calling into NICS. Each additional firearm adds 1 extra minute maximum to filling out the 4473 part.
So in totality for 1 firearm you invested: 46-61 minutes of your time, a single fax/stamp, possibly a trip to pick up that days firearms shipments (mostly applies to kitchen table FFLs that don't get after-hours deliveries and they have to pick them up at the hub), a phone call to the buyer, a phone call to NICS, a single 4473
In totality for 5 firearm you invested: 55-70 minutes of your time, a single fax/stamp, possibly a trip to pick up that days firearms shipments, a phone call to the buyer, a phone call to NICS, a single 4473
Most of the "investment" in doing a transfer is a fixed cost or time investment so adding extra serial numbers doesn't add much to the cost.
You may disagree with me. That's fine. I've been there, done that.
Treat me fairly and I treat you fairly. I'm very loyal to a single "small shop in the corner of my barn" gunshop in NE IN because they treat me very fairly. I once had 15 AR lowers transfered at the same time and he only charged me $30 total. All SN's were consecutive so it was really easy to go down the list and jot down all the SN's and info on the 4473 and the bound book. Setting a very fair price will gain you much more business in the end, even if that means eating some lost time when that very rare exception comes in and it's a hassle to log into the book etc.
Then get your own FFL - FLL03, that is.
What ticks me off? Referring to a firearm dealer as an FFL.
Nooooo......
A firearm dealer has an FFL01.
A collector has an FFL03.
A manufacture has an FFLnn.
etc.
- Jan 12, 2012
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The issue of transfer fees is a great example of a larger problem. I don't find it at all unreasonable that a licensed dealer expects to be paid for the time he or she invests in doing work. I understand that this does not add any value whatsoever to the 'bargain' someone may have found, but most people are not willing to work for free. Why should the gun dealer be any different?
The problem is the cost of compliance with both laws and the arbitrary regulations that agencies including but not limited to the BATFE can have added onto those laws at teh stroke of a pen. It is an invisible cost that largely gets ignored until it hits home. The problem here is not that your local dealer charges for doing federally mandated work on your behalf, but that the federal government mandates something that I would argue is absolutely unconstitutional and at minimum an unnecessary intrusion.
Now think of the costs added to everything you buy because of stupid regulations made with no concern for the cost of compliance both in terms of immediate compliance and by eliminating competition from the market by forcing out those too small to have an in-house compliance department (either when they realize they can't do it or after they get busted for some obscure rule change they missed and get fined into oblivion). In the end, the problem is not greeting you across the counter. The problem resides inside the Washington beltway.
The problem is the cost of compliance with both laws and the arbitrary regulations that agencies including but not limited to the BATFE can have added onto those laws at teh stroke of a pen. It is an invisible cost that largely gets ignored until it hits home. The problem here is not that your local dealer charges for doing federally mandated work on your behalf, but that the federal government mandates something that I would argue is absolutely unconstitutional and at minimum an unnecessary intrusion.
Now think of the costs added to everything you buy because of stupid regulations made with no concern for the cost of compliance both in terms of immediate compliance and by eliminating competition from the market by forcing out those too small to have an in-house compliance department (either when they realize they can't do it or after they get busted for some obscure rule change they missed and get fined into oblivion). In the end, the problem is not greeting you across the counter. The problem resides inside the Washington beltway.
- Jan 12, 2012
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Unless they have changed the rules since the last time I checked, you can run it out of your house, but you are required to have a dedicated entrance for the purpose, which is intended to make it difficult to run it out of the house within the rules. It is also important to understand that you have to pay annual fees which make it prohibitively expensive to hold an FFL if you aren't making money on it. Granted, you should hit break-even somewhere between 10 and 20 guns per year, but even that is challenging without a storefront unless you are well connected with buyers, and they are going to expect to buy on the cheap-after all, you don't have the expense of a shop nor do you have anything else to contribute toward one-stop shopping.
First application is $200 for a three year license.
Then $90 for a three year renewal. $30/year isn't bad.
CountryBoy19
Grandmaster
I think you missed the point we were discussing.
We were discussing the idea of how to handle multiple transfers. Just like most other costs involved in a transfer, the overhead and "reasonable profit" are fixed costs no matter how many items are transferred. An extra $5 dollars for a couple extra minutes of time logging multiple serial numbers is a pretty sweet paycheck by most standards. There is no need to double the transfer fee for 2 guns, or triple the fee for 3 guns. IMHO that is where it turns from "reasonable profit" to "unreasonable"... and that's when I take my business to the multitude of other FFL's charging reasonable fee structures on transfers.
That's the beauty of the the free-market. In most areas of the state, if a person is charging unreasonable fees for transfers, the smart guys will find the kitchen-table FFL that is only charging $15 or $20.
All these people talking about what to do or how to get an FFL....No one has mentioned zoning, you will not get an FFL without county/city/state zoning approval for said location. This is the biggest pain in the but part of getting an FFL in Marion county....zoning must be C4 C5 or C7...now this is just one county, each county is different. this has no affect on residential or comercial/retail space...zoning must be correct.
greyhound47
Expert
"reasonable profit"?
Ok....CountryBoy19
Grandmaster
He asked what we like/hate. I told him. I will likely never patronize the OP if he gets his FFL, not because I don't like him, or for any other except for I have a shop I'm already loyal to and for the reasons I've mentioned. For him to know what makes me patronize, and be loyal to "my shop" will go a long way in helping him to be successful. I didn't ever have a "problem" per-se; I was only trying to help the OP understand what is important to me in an FFL. I realize that more guns in inventory = more overhead and more overhead = higher prices. It's a fact. So for me, I actually prefer a dealer that doesn't have a huge shop with lots of overhead. I prefer a shop that offers affordable transfers and I can shop around for the best deal. A large, stocking dealer is expensive and often-times they charge unreal rates on transfers because they're attempting to "coerce" you into buying from them. It's a business, I understand that. But typically my mind is made up on what I want when I enter a shop so I don't really care about a dealer having a big stock. My dealer "gets it" in that regard. I was looking for X gun. I found a decent deal on it and I asked him what his price would be (he still had to order it in). He (knowing I shop around and already had a good price I had found) asked me what price he was going to have to beat. I told him and he did some checking. He came back and said, "I can't beat that price, heck, it's even going to be cheaper if you buy from there and have me transfer it so just go that way." I asked him what his price was. It was only about $40 more in the end. I went with him anyways but he told me that in the future I really don't have to do that. He would have made just as much money from my transfer as he made from the sale of the gun and that I only wasted my money by buying from him.Looks like you solved your own problem.
And there ya have it.
Gotta love blunt honesty and respect from a dealer.
First of all, I'm not the one that brought up "reasonable profit" so if you'd like to jump right in the middle of a conversation I suggest you back-track and read it from the beginning before doing so. Second of all, as pointed out below, there is such a thing as reasonable profit. If your profit is unreasonable (high prices) people will go elsewhere. If there is no-where else to go, somebody will open up a shop and out-compete you. It's the nature of the business and I think it's a wonderful thing. Third, I put "reasonable profit" in quotations because "reasonable" is subjective in this case and it is highly dependent upon how much value you place on a multitude of different factors to include, but not limited to: your dealer having a large stock, your dealer carrying lots of accessories, service after the fact, knowledge-base at your dealer, repair (gunsmithing) potential from your dealer, level of respect you receive, atmosphere of the shop etc. All of those things are valued differently by different people and based upon how much they value those things they can form their own opinion of what is "reasonable"."reasonable profit"?
I'm not going to pay a $10,000 markup on a $1,000 gun just because the dealer can service it, and he is respectful, and the atmosphere of his shop is good. Likewise, I wouldn't buy a gun from a shop for $0 markup if he was disrespectful, full of BS, had no service after the fact, and his shop doubled as a strip-club/drug-joint at night. So yes, there is such a thing as "reasonable profit" and you can determine for yourself what "reasonable" is, and find a shop that fits that definition.
The whole FFL thing is stuck in the 60s. This is the internet age.
I propose a different method.
You find a gun you like online, you purchase it and as part of the online checkout process and when payment is done, it transfers it to the BATFE website. You type in all that info you write on that form each time, then the BATFE computer does it's thing and says yea or ney. Then sends you back to the dealer website to finish the process. Heck maybe we could even save the info with a passworded login.
Perhaps even a printout you can take to the gunshop for a clearance to buy firearms that day.
Nah that makes too much freaking sense. I mean it's not like the FCC (another government regulatory body) doesn't already do this sort of thing with the stuff they manage.
I propose a different method.
You find a gun you like online, you purchase it and as part of the online checkout process and when payment is done, it transfers it to the BATFE website. You type in all that info you write on that form each time, then the BATFE computer does it's thing and says yea or ney. Then sends you back to the dealer website to finish the process. Heck maybe we could even save the info with a passworded login.
Perhaps even a printout you can take to the gunshop for a clearance to buy firearms that day.
Nah that makes too much freaking sense. I mean it's not like the FCC (another government regulatory body) doesn't already do this sort of thing with the stuff they manage.
