Well not every university is woke

[jamil]

So my son is still hell bent on being a shyster. So we're looking at potential law schools. We're very concerned about wokeness. We found some resources on the internet that rate that sort of thing. thefire.org is one that evaluates free speech on campus. There's another that ranks schools in terms of faculty viewpoint diversity.

Notre Dame is one of the schools on his list. He's not Catholic, but ND ranks pretty well in faculty viewpoint diversity. So we wondered about the student body. In a listing of student commentary on the school's free speech, one of the commenters rated ND low on free speech because a bunch of students in the dorm openly said they're voting for Trump! Right in front of her! How DARE they!

Most of the comments seemed to be progressives complaining that other people dare to have opinions on campus that they disagree with.

So that moved ND up just a bit on the list in my book.

 

[jamil]

BTW, any of you shysters care to plug a good law school? We'd appreciate any advice. Just don't bill me for it.

He takes his LSAT in a couple weeks. He's been hitting ~170 in practice tests. So I'm curious how good of a predictor that really is. That's only a median score at Vandy and ND, so he's not likely to get full ride scholarship at those schools even if he hits his practice average.

But if he can score 168 or better, there are a lot of full ride scholarship opportunities in the top 50 schools. I’d rather see him go to a lesser ranked school and not amass a lot of debt than go to a top 25 school and start out in a new career deep in the red.

 

[2tonic]

Did you check out Hillsdale in Michigan?
Dedicated to the Constitution, free speech, and American values.

 

[jamil]

I don't see where Hillsdale has a law school. But, it looks like it'd have been a decent school for undergrad. But dang man. It's white AF.

 

[xwing]

I don't see where Hillsdale has a law school. But, it looks like it'd have been a decent school for undergrad. But dang man. It's white AF.

View attachment 376545

It says "100% unknown". So It's probably not really 0%; they just have no data either way.

IU - Bloomington has a good law school. But it is extremely woke. So probably not what you're looking for. IU - Indianapolis has an ok one, but ranked far below Bloomington.

 

[Magyars]

Hillsdale in Michigan is the only college that does not take a penny of federal money

 

[INPatriot]

Did you check out Hillsdale in Michigan?
Dedicated to the Constitution, free speech, and American values.

I don't see where Hillsdale has a law school. But, it looks like it'd have been a decent school for undergrad. But dang man. It's white AF.

View attachment 376545

Hillsdale in Michigan is the only college that does not take a penny of federal money

I believe it would be in the best interest of Hillsdale and the nation for Hillsdale to have a Law School.

I take their online courses when time permits. I find the faculty, lecturers and information to be very engaging.

 

[Magyars]

I believe it would be in the best interest of Hillsdale and the nation for Hillsdale to have a Law School.

I take their online courses when time permits. I find the faculty, lecturers and information to be very engaging.

We've taken a few and will continue to do so.
Dean Arn ( I believe ) is one of our favorites

 

[sixGuns]

I went back to school with the intent of going to law school. I didn't drop out, just changed some coursework. Long story short... I am not a lawyer. Notre Dame is good. Here is my advice based on my experiences. This is from about 8 years ago.

Where you go to get your JD matters. It just does, woke or not, it will dictate many future prospects.

Chat GPT-4 was in the 90th percentile passing the bar if I remember correct and that was early 2023.

 

[2tonic]

We've taken a few and will continue to do so.
Dean Arn ( I believe ) is one of our favorites

Agreed, Larry Arn is a gem.
I've taken some of Hillsdale's online Constitution courses, and Professor Arn has a true skill for making the complex seem simple.

 

[jamil]

I went back to school with the intent of going to law school. I didn't drop out, just changed some coursework. Long story short... I am not a lawyer. Notre Dame is good. Here is my advice based on my experiences. This is from about 8 years ago.

Where you go to get your JD matters. It just does, woke or not, it will dictate many future prospects.

Chat GPT-4 was in the 90th percentile passing the bar if I remember correct and that was early 2023.

Yeah. That's what we're finding out. Unfortunately, it really does matter. Right now ND has gained more notoriety because Amy Barrett graduated from ND. They're a top 20 school.

At first, his first choice was University of Michigan. But they're probably one of the wokest laws schools, and one of the least open to free speech.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Yeah. That's what we're finding out. Unfortunately, it really does matter. Right now ND has gained more notoriety because Amy Barrett graduated from ND. They're a top 20 school.

At first, his first choice was University of Michigan. But they're probably one of the wokest laws schools, and one of the least open to free speech.

If the name on the sheepskin is that important, is it too much to ask to just shut up and attend for just a couple years? Grit your teeth in exchange for better lifelong prospects? Kinda like going along with the annoying hot chick for the first part of the night so you get in her pants later?

Just playing Devil's advocate.

 

[Scuba591]

IANAL but how about Liberty University School of Law?

 

[jamil]

IANAL but how about Liberty University School of Law?

Like mentioned earlier, the name on the sheepskin matters. Liberty ranks only 140 among law schools. As a result, median starting salary is only $60k/year for law school graduates. For comparison, Notre Dame Is top 25 and their grads start out at > twice that.

 

[TheSpookyCat]

BTW, any of you shysters care to plug a good law school? We'd appreciate any advice. Just don't bill me for it.

He takes his LSAT in a couple weeks. He's been hitting ~170 in practice tests. So I'm curious how good of a predictor that really is. That's only a median score at Vandy and ND, so he's not likely to get full ride scholarship at those schools even if he hits his practice average.

But if he can score 168 or better, there are a lot of full ride scholarship opportunities in the top 50 schools. I’d rather see him go to a lesser ranked school and not amass a lot of debt than go to a top 25 school and start out in a new career deep in the red.

Does he want to practice law as a life-long career, or more as way to open new career paths down the road?

The large and well-funded state programs can offer competitive curriculum opportunities, but the big-name private programs offer networking opportunities that cannot be found anywhere else.

If your son wants a place in a specific high-profile firm, a job in a specialized corner of practice, or a future career in public life the returns on those additional costs could be worthwhile, maybe even necessary.

However, if he plans on working his whole life as a public defender or a divorce attorney he can probably achieve at the highest levels without the added expense and stress of a brand-name degree.

 

[BluePig]

I dated a professor who taught at Notre Dame and have lived in the area of the university for most of my 59 years on this Earth.
I can tell you that Notre Dame is about as woke as they come.
The only thing catholic about it is the name.
I would recommend maybe Valpo.
My nephew graduated from there.
Seemed like he got a good education.

 

[jamil]

If the name on the sheepskin is that important, is it too much to ask to just shut up and attend for just a couple years? Grit your teeth in exchange for better lifelong prospects? Kinda like going along with the annoying hot chick for the first part of the night so you get in her pants later?

Just playing Devil's advocate.

Well. ND is the devil, lol. Wouldn't be his first choice if wokeness weren't a problem in so many top schools. It's not like just a few years ago, where you just put up with it and keep your mouth shut. It's crowding out curriculum. It's a complete waste of time. If all your professors are woke activists, you're just not going to have a quality education.

The viewpoint diversity ratings for schools are helpful (see below). This is scored based on political donations of faculty. The more negative the number, the lefter they are, or rather the more their political donations support left causes, and visa versa. Notice there are very few schools that have a positive score.

Also note that the line associated with each school. Some are long, some are short. The longer the line, the greater the viewpoint diversity is between the professors, even if the average is more negative. So staying with ND as an example, the mean and median political viewpoint among faculty is left. But the line is really wide. So the difference between them shows there are some right leaning professors there.

 

[jamil]

Does he want to practice law as a life-long career, or more as way to open new career paths down the road?

The large and well-funded state programs can offer competitive curriculum opportunities, but the big-name private programs offer networking opportunities that cannot be found anywhere else.

If your son wants a place in a specific high-profile firm, a job in a specialized corner of practice, or a future career in public life the returns on those additional costs could be worthwhile, maybe even necessary.

However, if he plans on working his whole life as a public defender or a divorce attorney he can probably achieve at the highest levels without the added expense and stress of a brand-name degree.

He said if he can find a good job he likes and pays well, that a JD helps him get, he's fine if it's not as a lawyer. But he would prefer to be a lawyer. He's not sure which branch to pursue at this point, except he's pretty sure what he doesn't want.

Temperamentally, he's high in conscientiousness and he's low in agreeableness. He doesn't suffer emotional people well, so divorce attorney is out, lol. Defense attorney is out, because he doesn't want to help criminals get off. Obviously that includes public defender. If he gets into criminal law at all, he said it would probably be as a prosecutor, but he also has this libertarian mindset so I doubt he'd want to do that as well.

He's kinda interested in business law. He minored in business in undergrad. He's also interested in constitutional law. He is looking at schools that have a relatively high clerkship rate. Another plus for ND at ~18%.

 

[d.kaufman]

I would recommend maybe Valpo.

They closed their law school 5 years or so ago

 

[jamil]

I mean, heck, he's even thinking about BYU as a backup! I think they're ranked in the top 30. And are one of the few universities that have a positive faculty viewpoint diversity rating. But, it's a long way from home. And he's pretty close to atheist, so not sure how the whole Mormon ethos would work out there culturally.