Wasted votes

[Stschil]

I'll not re-quote you Doug, but you have my respect, Sir.

Truer words have not been spoken.

In addition to Doug's words, I will add that part of that peace is in knowing that My house and my soul is prepared, no matter what may transpire. I have Faith.

 

[mrjarrell]

To All,

From my perspective I believe that most folks I know as Libertarians are more at peace because they are no longer controlled by fear.

By this I mean that, speaking only for myself, I am not afraid of President Obama being reelected because I know he will do harm to this country. However, that harm was done by President Bush before him and President Clinton before him and President Bush before him and President Reagan before him and on and on...

I know that if Governor Romney wins this election he will drastically harm this nation. It will be in different ways than President Obama, but nonetheless harm will come.

I must say that there is a vast gulf of difference between the man/woman on the street of a particular party and the party machine itself. I find common ground on certain issues with both republicans and democrats, yet notice that neither side is truly happy with their own party. That is because the party machines are so corrupt that they have become two (2) wings of the same political mechanism that is driving out country away from greatness. So the issue is not with 99% of the republicans or 99% of the democrats who are not part of the machine and my disagree openly and honestly about issues, but with the 1% of the party machines that drive our nation into the same ruinous wreck.

So I am not afraid of four (4) more years because I know that four (4) new years will be just as bad, albeit in a different manner. So to vote for either of the two (2) major party candidates is a vote supporting the slow demise of this once great nation.

Fear of one major party over the other no longer has sway over me and I find a great deal of peace in that. For those who feel we "must" vote for a major party just to keep the other guy out, I pity you, I really do. And I do not mean that in an arrogant or demeaning way, but in an honestly peaceful way knowing that I was once there myself. I pity the people who are controlled by fear so much that they cannot stay true to their ideals out of fear of the other side, and that is very sad.

Regards,

Doug

Very well said and so very true.

 

[hondatech2k2]

To All,

From my perspective I believe that most folks I know as Libertarians are more at peace because they are no longer controlled by fear.

By this I mean that, speaking only for myself, I am not afraid of President Obama being reelected because I know he will do harm to this country. However, that harm was done by President Bush before him and President Clinton before him and President Bush before him and President Reagan before him and on and on...

I know that if Governor Romney wins this election he will drastically harm this nation. It will be in different ways than President Obama, but nonetheless harm will come.

I must say that there is a vast gulf of difference between the man/woman on the street of a particular party and the party machine itself. I find common ground on certain issues with both republicans and democrats, yet notice that neither side is truly happy with their own party. That is because the party machines are so corrupt that they have become two (2) wings of the same political mechanism that is driving out country away from greatness. So the issue is not with 99% of the republicans or 99% of the democrats who are not part of the machine and my disagree openly and honestly about issues, but with the 1% of the party machines that drive our nation into the same ruinous wreck.

So I am not afraid of four (4) more years because I know that four (4) new years will be just as bad, albeit in a different manner. So to vote for either of the two (2) major party candidates is a vote supporting the slow demise of this once great nation.

Fear of one major party over the other no longer has sway over me and I find a great deal of peace in that. For those who feel we "must" vote for a major party just to keep the other guy out, I pity you, I really do. And I do not mean that in an arrogant or demeaning way, but in an honestly peaceful way knowing that I was once there myself. I pity the people who are controlled by fear so much that they cannot stay true to their ideals out of fear of the other side, and that is very sad.

Regards,

Doug

I am speechless, what a fantastic choice of words! Bravo my friend.....BRAVO!

I have repp'd you for such an outstanding display of words, charisma, and intellect that I wish everyone had (including myself)!!

 

[Blackhawk2001]

To All,

From my perspective I believe that most folks I know as Libertarians are more at peace because they are no longer controlled by fear.

By this I mean that, speaking only for myself, I am not afraid of President Obama being reelected because I know he will do harm to this country. However, that harm was done by President Bush before him and President Clinton before him and President Bush before him and President Reagan before him and on and on...

I know that if Governor Romney wins this election he will drastically harm this nation. It will be in different ways than President Obama, but nonetheless harm will come.

I must say that there is a vast gulf of difference between the man/woman on the street of a particular party and the party machine itself. I find common ground on certain issues with both republicans and democrats, yet notice that neither side is truly happy with their own party. That is because the party machines are so corrupt that they have become two (2) wings of the same political mechanism that is driving out country away from greatness. So the issue is not with 99% of the republicans or 99% of the democrats who are not part of the machine and my disagree openly and honestly about issues, but with the 1% of the party machines that drive our nation into the same ruinous wreck.

So I am not afraid of four (4) more years because I know that four (4) new years will be just as bad, albeit in a different manner. So to vote for either of the two (2) major party candidates is a vote supporting the slow demise of this once great nation.

Fear of one major party over the other no longer has sway over me and I find a great deal of peace in that. For those who feel we "must" vote for a major party just to keep the other guy out, I pity you, I really do. And I do not mean that in an arrogant or demeaning way, but in an honestly peaceful way knowing that I was once there myself. I pity the people who are controlled by fear so much that they cannot stay true to their ideals out of fear of the other side, and that is very sad.

Regards,

Doug

Nicely written screed. Depressing in its outlook, but nicely written.

 

[hornadylnl]

Nicely written screed. Depressing in its outlook, but nicely written.

Being the master of screeds, you are fully capable of judging them.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

Doug - well written - but I ask again and no one has answered- we face a VERY similar situation to 1980. Presidents Carter and Obama have a lot in common. Both are in over their head. The press hates Romney as much or more than it hated Reagan. There was an independent John Anderson running as well. I believe that there was a libertarian running as well. This situation is looking remarkably similar.

How do you vote, and why? Reagan had promise on the economic front and perhaps the knowledge that he would not kowtow like Carter had to the foreign powers that be. Sound familiar? But Reagan was NOT a libertarian's dream, either. Closer than Carter to be sure, but also further away in some areas.

So we have a choice to make. If we think that it is POSSIBLE for Romney to do some good and turn things around - the rational choice is to vote for him and bet on the fighting chance. If we think that there is no prayer - then should we vote for Obama and a quick demise? Or someone that represents our views better (but has no realistic chance in the election) so that we can ceremonially wash our hands of the decision as Pontias Pilate did?

Good people will come to different conclusions. I can honestly say that fear is not on my list of motivations. I simply am trying to look at the situation and arrive at a logical reasonable decision. Others may arrive a different decisions - and that's completely fair.

 

[Raskolnikov]

I'm gonna have to go with Churchmouse on this one. Let's say by act God, Johnson gets in. Then what. Congress will see the light and magically rally to his side...not so much.

Never underestimate the power of the veto, my friend. If congress wants to get anything done, they'd have to done down their drive for bigger government under Johnson. Of course, Johnson would have to be willing to compromise, too. No, things would not automatically get better, but at least it would be a start.

It is my belief that, with the insightful inclusion of Paul Ryan as VP candidate...... Romney has vastly defined himself as very different from BO ( and from 'W', and from McCain).

There is a new Republican Party emerging here (that includes people like Chris Christie, Marco Rubio and the (Republican) Wisconsin governor Scott Walker).... who are not willing to cow-tow to the unions and special interests...... and have the opportunity to truely change American politics for the better, and get our insane government spending under control. Not to mention, they want to STOP borrowing from China (amen!).

It takes time.

You make some valid points about some new faces in the Republican Party. I still think that these people are too willing to jeopardize your rights for corporate interests. I continue to believe that certain third-party candidate are more willing to go the extra mile to protect the American people, that's all.

 

[churchmouse]

I am not fearful of the big "O" I just really do hate what he has and has not done. I will hate him more if he gets re-elected as he will do and not do even more. If this makes any sense to you then you are all as whack as me. I am tired of being so hateful.

Doug,

You state your points and opinion so very well. +1 to you sir.

 

[TopDog]

To All,

From my perspective I believe that most folks I know as Libertarians are more at peace because they are no longer controlled by fear.

By this I mean that, speaking only for myself, I am not afraid of President Obama being reelected because I know he will do harm to this country. However, that harm was done by President Bush before him and President Clinton before him and President Bush before him and President Reagan before him and on and on...

I know that if Governor Romney wins this election he will drastically harm this nation. It will be in different ways than President Obama, but nonetheless harm will come.

I must say that there is a vast gulf of difference between the man/woman on the street of a particular party and the party machine itself. I find common ground on certain issues with both republicans and democrats, yet notice that neither side is truly happy with their own party. That is because the party machines are so corrupt that they have become two (2) wings of the same political mechanism that is driving out country away from greatness. So the issue is not with 99% of the republicans or 99% of the democrats who are not part of the machine and my disagree openly and honestly about issues, but with the 1% of the party machines that drive our nation into the same ruinous wreck.

So I am not afraid of four (4) more years because I know that four (4) new years will be just as bad, albeit in a different manner. So to vote for either of the two (2) major party candidates is a vote supporting the slow demise of this once great nation.

Fear of one major party over the other no longer has sway over me and I find a great deal of peace in that. For those who feel we "must" vote for a major party just to keep the other guy out, I pity you, I really do. And I do not mean that in an arrogant or demeaning way, but in an honestly peaceful way knowing that I was once there myself. I pity the people who are controlled by fear so much that they cannot stay true to their ideals out of fear of the other side, and that is very sad.

Regards,

Doug

To take no action is an action. To vote for a 3rd party without first establishing a base of support that would make that vote worth wile is miss guided and idealistic. So you dont fear the two knuckle heads that have a chance a to win? Do you also walk out into traffic without trying to avoid the cars? Bold words that will come to nothing. Do the work first. You want to make real change. Do it from the bottom up. Do what you can to slow the damage being done from the top. Then clean out the Congress and get it into some kind of working order. Then and only then in the future will a 3rd party candidate have a real chance of being elected but also to cause real change once in. Not trying to stem the flow of destruction while actually doing something to fix is fool hardy at the very least and dangerous at the worst.

God Bless you all, political suicide is not the answer to the countries problem. Sounds like you just want to burn everything down and try to rebuild from the ashes rather than to work to fix what is wrong.

And from what I gather from this thread the faster it burns the happier you will be.

 

[sepe]

To take no action is an action. To vote for a 3rd party without first establishing a base of support that would make that vote worth wile is miss guided and idealistic. So you dont fear the two knuckle heads that have a chance a to win? Do you also walk out into traffic without trying to avoid the cars? Bold words that will come to nothing. Do the work first. You want to make real change. Do it from the bottom up. Do what you can to slow the damage being done from the top. Then clean out the Congress and get it into some kind of working order. Then and only then in the future will a 3rd party candidate have a real chance of being elected but also to cause real change once in. Not trying to stem the flow of destruction while actually doing something to fix is fool hardy at the very least and dangerous at the worst.

God Bless you all, political suicide is not the answer to the countries problem. Sounds like you just want to burn everything down and try to rebuild from the ashes rather than to work to fix what is wrong.

And from what I gather from this thread the faster it burns the happier you will be.

How is voting for candidates that are mostly aligned with your principles and beliefs hoping or wanting to burn everything down and try to rebuild? What it says to me is that people are sick of compromising their principles and integrity to vote for people that share little to nothing regarding their views.

 

[Bunnykid68]

To take no action is an action. To vote for a 3rd party without first establishing a base of support that would make that vote worth wile is miss guided and idealistic. So you dont fear the two knuckle heads that have a chance a to win? Do you also walk out into traffic without trying to avoid the cars? Bold words that will come to nothing. Do the work first. You want to make real change. Do it from the bottom up. Do what you can to slow the damage being done from the top. Then clean out the Congress and get it into some kind of working order. Then and only then in the future will a 3rd party candidate have a real chance of being elected but also to cause real change once in. Not trying to stem the flow of destruction while actually doing something to fix is fool hardy at the very least and dangerous at the worst.

God Bless you all, political suicide is not the answer to the countries problem. Sounds like you just want to burn everything down and try to rebuild from the ashes rather than to work to fix what is wrong.

And from what I gather from this thread the faster it burns the happier you will be.

I am all for burning it down, keep hiring a manager that cannot run things the way they need to be run is just letting it smolder for hours vs letting it burn up right away. BURN IT DOWN. Romeny is a slow burn and Obama is a slightly faster slow burn

 

[GREEN607]

I am all for burning it down, keep hiring a manager that cannot run things the way they need to be run is just letting it smolder for hours vs letting it burn up right away. BURN IT DOWN. Romeny is a slow burn and Obama is a slightly faster slow burn

I would expect to see this kind of post by another type 'bunny'.. say, Holly Madison???

 

[Lex Concord]

The pain of letting it crash now will be much less than what will occur later. The longer we push a collapse into the future, the less chance we will have to rebuild.

QFT and repped.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

Lex -

If that's the case (and given our discussion in another thread) - why not vote for Obama and speed up the collapse... sort of a "We don't need no water, let the $$$$ burn" play on things...

 

[Libertarian01]

To All,

I will attempt to answer as best I can hoping to clarify where you asked.

Doug - well written - but I ask again and no one has answered- we face a VERY similar situation to 1980. Presidents Carter and Obama have a lot in common. Both are in over their head. The press hates Romney as much or more than it hated Reagan. There was an independent John Anderson running as well. I believe that there was a libertarian running as well. This situation is looking remarkably similar.

How do you vote, and why? Reagan had promise on the economic front and perhaps the knowledge that he would not kowtow like Carter had to the foreign powers that be. Sound familiar? But Reagan was NOT a libertarian's dream, either. Closer than Carter to be sure, but also further away in some areas.

ArmedProgrammer,

Back in the 80's I voted for President Reagan. He was the first President I voted for in 1984. I loved Reagan. I still do. He made me feel great about America. He gave me a sense of pride in my nation for the first time beyond the rhetoric of school so for that I am grateful.

Yet, love is an emotion and not a logical response to actions that took our country from less than $1 Trillion to over $4 Trillion. He was a President that ran on getting rid of the Dept of Education yet increased its funding. He was the President who set the precedent for bailing out a failing bank instead of letting it fail as it should have done under a free market (May 1984, Continental Illinois, 8th largest at the time).

So we have a choice to make. If we think that it is POSSIBLE for Romney to do some good and turn things around - the rational choice is to vote for him and bet on the fighting chance. If we think that there is no prayer - then should we vote for Obama and a quick demise? Or someone that represents our views better (but has no realistic chance in the election) so that we can ceremonially wash our hands of the decision as Pontias Pilate did?

Your choice has a premise that I reject: "Romney to do some good and turn things around." I am certain that there are those in this country who honestly and wholly believe that Pres Bush did good, that Pres Obama has done good. There are a few things I even believe they have done good at. However I believe they have done great harm to our nation on an economic front. They have maintained, continued and expanded the expectations of investors that they cannot fail - a concept that is anathema to the idea of investment. ALL investment is a risk - reward calculation. When the government tries to artificially insure against risk as it has done with multiple bailouts it creates a false sense of security that begets an increasing probability of absolute economic failure not only for America and Americans but tens of millions of people around the world.

Gov Romney would not deviate from the paradigm.

This is not good.

Good people will come to different conclusions. I can honestly say that fear is not on my list of motivations. I simply am trying to look at the situation and arrive at a logical reasonable decision. Others may arrive a different decisions - and that's completely fair.

I would ask you only to look into your own heart, which I cannot do. If you truly like and support Gov Romney and believe in him as your candidate - then you are not voting out of fear but rather supporting your candidate. Good for you!

However, if Gov Romney does not move you to a support him, but rather you find yourself moved by the idea that "at least he is better than the other guy" I will also not disagree with you, but that is no longer good enough for me. I want a candidate that I can believe in and support with all of my heart and my intellect. Regrettably, neither the Republicans nor the Democrats have given me that so Gov Johnson will be my choice.

Finally, if you are voting only because we cannot survive another four (4) years of President Obama AND Gov Romney has a chance to win, then I will believe that in fact you are voting out of and motivated primarily by fear. If this is not you that is a good thing. The truth is it is millions of registered voters.

To take no action is an action. To vote for a 3rd party without first establishing a base of support that would make that vote worth wile is miss guided and idealistic. So you dont fear the two knuckle heads that have a chance a to win? Do you also walk out into traffic without trying to avoid the cars? Bold words that will come to nothing. Do the work first. You want to make real change. Do it from the bottom up. Do what you can to slow the damage being done from the top. Then clean out the Congress and get it into some kind of working order. Then and only then in the future will a 3rd party candidate have a real chance of being elected but also to cause real change once in. Not trying to stem the flow of destruction while actually doing something to fix is fool hardy at the very least and dangerous at the worst.

TopDog,

I agree that to take no action is to take action, which is why I take all the action I can from my position to attempt to improve our nation.

#1) I vote. I exercise force by casting my vote for the best candidate and not the one most likely to win.

#2) I am active in the Libertarian party in an attempt to grow its base.

#3) I donate money in an effort to increase my parties power.

#4) I call elected officials who are not in my party to share my opinion and hopefully sway their minds on voting on certain issues.

Regarding fearing the knuckleheads (I like this by the way). I am resigned to know that if either Pres Obama is reelected or Gov Romney wins the contest - the United States will loose. I do not fear this as I have come to accept it the same way I did four (4) years ago with Sen McCain and Sen Obama contesting for victory. Had either one won this nation would loose, just in different ways.

Regarding the Congress I agree 100%. We need to get candidates in that believe in economic strength so I will vote for and support all of the Libertarian candidates that I can without ignoring the contest for the Presidency, for to do so would be taking no action, which is taking action.

God Bless you all, political suicide is not the answer to the countries problem. Sounds like you just want to burn everything down and try to rebuild from the ashes rather than to work to fix what is wrong.

And from what I gather from this thread the faster it burns the happier you will be.

I believe that political suicide has been fostered on us as Americans for the last many years. I pose this question, "who was the last Presidential candidate that you truly believed in?" For many years tens of millions of Americans would answer "no one, but we can't have the other guy win." That has led us down a road to ruin, constantly choosing the lesser of two (2) evils. Imagine where we will be in 30 years with that concept continuing to hold sway? My answer is a very sad place indeed.

Regards,

Doug

 

[churchmouse]

To All,

I will attempt to answer as best I can hoping to clarify where you asked.



I would ask you only to look into your own heart, which I cannot do. If you truly like and support Gov Romney and believe in him as your candidate - then you are not voting out of fear but rather supporting your candidate. Good for you!

However, if Gov Romney does not move you to a support him, but rather you find yourself moved by the idea that "at least he is better than the other guy" I will also not disagree with you, but that is no longer good enough for me. I want a candidate that I can believe in and support with all of my heart and my intellect. Regrettably, neither the Republicans nor the Democrats have given me that so Gov Johnson will be my choice.

Finally, if you are voting only because we cannot survive another four (4) years of President Obama AND Gov Romney has a chance to win, then I will believe that in fact you are voting out of and motivated primarily by fear. If this is not you that is a good thing. The truth is it is millions of registered voters.



I believe that political suicide has been fostered on us as Americans for the last many years. I pose this question, "who was the last Presidential candidate that you truly believed in?" For many years tens of millions of Americans would answer "no one, but we can't have the other guy win." That has led us down a road to ruin, constantly choosing the lesser of two (2) evils. Imagine where we will be in 30 years with that concept continuing to hold sway? My answer is a very sad place indeed.

Regards,

Doug

Again.....+1 as I am out of rep.


What do you propose. The system offers up what "They" want us to have and sell it as a choice. Again, what would you propose. I do feel that Gov. Romney will be better for the economy but there are a few things that send up flags. Would that not be the same with anyone. I am who I am and so are you. Will we agree on everything right down the line.....No. No one candidate will totally fill the bill for everyone but yet they try by spinning the facts and double speak.

 

[Lex Concord]

Lex -

If that's the case (and given our discussion in another thread) - why not vote for Obama and speed up the collapse... sort of a "We don't need no water, let the $$$$ burn" play on things...

I can only speak for myself, but that would be voting FOR evil.

I am not a believer in the ends justifies the means; also, hastening a collapse isn't my end, though it may be for some.

I just agree that a collapse now will be less destructive overall than a collapse later. I could be wrong; while most will find it hard to believe, it does happen from time to time.