Wasted votes

[jbombelli]

I vote for the 3rd party candidate quite often. Just not in the presidential election. If the Democrat candidate was not a douche, I would vote Democrat. I'm basing my vote on the candidates that have a chance of wining.



Depends on what Congress looks like at that time. I dont just blindly vote 3rd party. Lets work on changing the entire government from the bottom up. I think trying to change it from the top down is dangerous and ineffective.

We do work on that. Every bit as hard as we do at the national level. But the fact is, the same arguments are made at the local level as are made at the national level. The same insults, the same rhetoric. Ultimately most Republicans don't WANT to change. They LIKE big, overbearing government, despite all their pretty words to the contrary. Otherwise, how in the world would ROMNEY end up on the ballot? They had plenty to choose from, and THIS is the guy they go with? Mr. Big Government himself?

 

[TopDog]

We do work on that. Every bit as hard as we do at the national level. But the fact is, the same arguments are made at the local level as are made at the national level. The same insults, the same rhetoric. Ultimately most Republicans don't WANT to change. They LIKE big, overbearing government, despite all their pretty words to the contrary. Otherwise, how in the world would ROMNEY end up on the ballot? They had plenty to choose from, and THIS is the guy they go with? Mr. Big Government himself?

You make a very valid point. The Republican party is it's own worst enemy. No argument here. And I personally would have loved to see Ron Paul in place of Romney but underhanded and questionable acts by the Republican party kept that from happening. Yes sir the two party system sucks, no doubt about it.

 

[hornadylnl]

You make a very valid point. The Republican party is it's own worst enemy. No argument here. And I personally would have loved to see Ron Paul in place of Romney but underhanded and questionable acts by the Republican party kept that from happening. Yes sir the two party system sucks, no doubt about it.

So keep rewarding them.

 

[churchmouse]

Wade a mile or sink 10? I'd rather take my chances on the breakers than tread water with the sharks. There aren't enough life boats, Rose.

I see what you did there..................

 

[Stschil]

Believe what you want, spin any way you want. Bottom line the 3rd party route is a non player for president in 2012. As others have said you are not going to start at the top and make changes. You have to work your way up. People are saying vote with your heart and not your head. Isn't that like letting the little head do the thinking for you?

I'm less of a proponent of a third party as am of the belief that, without divine intervention, Noone now seated, nor anyone running for a seat in our central government is smart enough, strong enough, and has enough leadership ability to stop and correct the actions of so many that have come before them. Nor do I believe that the Country as a whole will ever accept the hard choices that need to be made NOW, in order for harder choices to not have to be made in the future.
It's all political masturbation, really. You can close your eyes and imagine what you want, but in the end, when you open your eyes on the morning of Nov 8, you'll still be sitting on the porcelain throne with a handful of tissue and another mess to clean up.

 

[Stschil]

So keep rewarding them.

My thoughts exactly.

Lets keep telling them that no matter what they do, as long as they remain the lessor of the two evils, they can count on our votes. 'Cause, this IS (and always will be) the most important election in our lifetime.


Added: Now I know it's the end of days, I just repped hornaday!

 

[hornadylnl]

My thoughts exactly.

Lets keep telling them that no matter what they do, as long as they remain the lessor of the two evils, they can count on our votes. 'Cause, this IS (and always will be) the most important election in our lifetime.


Added: Now I know it's the end of days, I just repped hornaday!

That's a pretty high bar the dems have set for the repubs.

 

[GREEN607]

How would my vote be wasted? If you turn off the boob tube and look at the facts, Obama and Romney are essentially the same candidate.

It is my belief that, with the insightful inclusion of Paul Ryan as VP candidate...... Romney has vastly defined himself as very different from BO ( and from 'W', and from McCain).

There is a new Republican Party emerging here (that includes people like Chris Christie, Marco Rubio and the (Republican) Wisconsin governor Scott Walker).... who are not willing to cow-tow to the unions and special interests...... and have the opportunity to truely change American politics for the better, and get our insane government spending under control. Not to mention, they want to STOP borrowing from China (amen!).

It takes time.

 

[hornadylnl]

There's going to be a lot of Republican voters just as disappointed in Romney as there are liberals who are disappointed in Obama for not ending the wars, etc.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

Some of you are convinced that the glass is half full , some half empty - some like Stschil are convinced it's completely full - of ****...

And it's an economic problem, right??
Let's look at possibilities for a sec. Obama DEFINITELY can't pull the economy out. But can Romney? If he applies what he says he's going to - can it work? I think there's a fighting chance. He's a turnaround guy. And that's what's needed for sure. I also think it's the only viable hope we've got. Those are the two guys left in the fight. Unless Gary Johnson had a Perot size machine in place - he doesn't have a prayer. And he doesn't. If he did, I'd think long an hard and go his way. But 50% of the country wouldn't know Gary Johnson from Howard Johnson. And that's a problem.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

There's going to be a lot of Republican voters just as disappointed in Romney as there are liberals who are disappointed in Obama for not ending the wars, etc.

I'm willing to take that gamble and find out. I'm NOT willing to watch another four years of Charley Foxtrot from this Community Organizer from Chicago.

And either way Rambone and you will be here griping. Since we didn't get far ENOUGH. So what do we have to lose?

 

[Stschil]

Some of you are convinced that the glass is half full , some half empty - some like Stschil are convinced it's completely full - of ****...

And it's an economic problem, right??
Let's look at possibilities for a sec. Obama DEFINITELY can't pull the economy out. But can Romney? If he applies what he says he's going to - can it work? I think there's a fighting chance. He's a turnaround guy. And that's what's needed for sure. I also think it's the only viable hope we've got. Those are the two guys left in the fight. Unless Gary Johnson had a Perot size machine in place - he doesn't have a prayer. And he doesn't. If he did, I'd think long an hard and go his way. But 50% of the country wouldn't know Gary Johnson from Howard Johnson. And that's a problem.

If I believed it was solely an economic problem, I'd be backing Mittens, he's got the creds and would have a fighting chance. Unfortunately, I think our problems run much deeper. It's why political class warfare works so well. Few care for anyone but themselves anymore. Society, largely, is after anything and everything they can grab and have no thought to others.
We here on INGO are a rare bunch. I've seen folks go out of their way to help others because its the right thing to do. I know that this occurs elsewhere, but not enough.

One thing that we talk about at Appleseeds really strikes a nerve with me. Its one reason why see things the way I do;
Dawes, Revere, and Prescott road that night, informing colonists that help was needed. No telephones, no Internet, no loud speakers, just their voices. I don't know how many people they spoke to, but as a percentage, it was few. By 6:00 the following evening, 10,000 men or more had come to the aid of Lexington and Concord. More the next and more following.

We ask this: How many could you call on to help today? 10, 20, maybe 30? How many would answer? Sad part is there are very few that could even muster 10 today.

Yes, there are examples, good examples, of outpourings of help. But they only seem to take place when there's been a disaster. Joplin, Henryville, New Orleans, to name a few. People WILL rise to the occasion, of that I have all Faith.

But, to move them from their comfortable couches takes a disaster. So, as I've been pointing out, let the damned ship crash. It's the only way to shake this Nation awake so that it can once again be the Nation of our Forefathers.

So long as people believe in a political fix, the solution will always be the same: keep the public complacent, don't make waves, don't make people uncomfortable.

 

[Project972]

you guys are getting bad. vote for bad, and think good thoughts.

 

[cobber]

SCOTUS and the upcoming election

Before you vote or don't vote, consider again the Supreme Court. The NYT is licking its chops over the future Obama appointees.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/05/opinion/moving-beyond-affirmative-action.html?src=un&feedurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjson8.nytimes.com%2Fpages%2Fopinion%2Findex.jsonp

Beyond affirmative action? Can't wait.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

If I believed it was solely an economic problem, I'd be backing Mittens, he's got the creds and would have a fighting chance. Unfortunately, I think our problems run much deeper. It's why political class warfare works so well. Few care for anyone but themselves anymore.

On this we agree - it's MORE than an economic problem. Ever read the Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musaashi? He's one of the better known samurai from way back in the day Japan. One of the points that he makes is that when faced with multiple attackers, you take the closest one and knock him back - driving him out of your way - then concentrate on the next one, etc.

Good advice from a guy who lived through a bunch of battles with guys playing with 3 foot long razor blades...

I would contend that the economic problem is , effectively, the closest attacker. It MUST be dealt with, and quickly or we are well and truly hosed. That's why the social issues should receive relatively little attention right now. Get the closest enemy and concentrate on that. Economy FIRST. Not that other issues don't exist. But they have to wait their turn.

Romney has a fighting chance of doing that if he, and the voters are not distracted by class warfare, media circuses, and all of the other distractions that the Obama team will throw out there. I agree that he's not the best hope for some of the other issues - although I think he will do okay - especially if we keep applying Tea Party /libertarian pressure to Congress. That will help. A lot.

 

[Stschil]

On this we agree - it's MORE than an economic problem. Ever read the Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musaashi? He's one of the better known samurai from way back in the day Japan. One of the points that he makes is that when faced with multiple attackers, you take the closest one and knock him back - driving him out of your way - then concentrate on the next one, etc.

Good advice from a guy who lived through a bunch of battles with guys playing with 3 foot long razor blades...

I would contend that the economic problem is , effectively, the closest attacker. It MUST be dealt with, and quickly or we are well and truly hosed. That's why the social issues should receive relatively little attention right now. Get the closest enemy and concentrate on that. Economy FIRST. Not that other issues don't exist. But they have to wait their turn.

Romney has a fighting chance of doing that if he, and the voters are not distracted by class warfare, media circuses, and all of the other distractions that the Obama team will throw out there. I agree that he's not the best hope for some of the other issues - although I think he will do okay - especially if we keep applying Tea Party /libertarian pressure to Congress. That will help. A lot.

While I see the logic and accept they are good points, I don't see our Nations issues as a physical battlefield, I see it more like a disease. Politically, all that ever gets treated are symptoms. Economic woes are a symptom, fixing them is like shooting an Offensive lineman up with pain killers so he feels better and plays longer. He ends up tearing up more of himself because he's unaware of the deeper problem.
The Dems think that by spreading the wealth around, it wil make people 'feel' better. Everybody gets a ticket to the circus. Has it fixed the underlying selfishness that caused the woes? No, it's gotten worse.
Reagan's economy put the country in a boom. A period of growth unheard of in recent history. Did it touch the underlying problems? No, it masked them. I would even say it promoted them and made them worse.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

While I see the logic and accept they are good points, I don't see our Nations issues as a physical battlefield, I see it more like a disease.
....
Reagan's economy put the country in a boom. A period of growth unheard of in recent history. Did it touch the underlying problems? No, it masked them. I would even say it promoted them and made them worse.

So would you have preferred to continue with the Carter lunacy??? Or to have elected Reagan? I, for one, would have elected Reagan. We'd be speaking Russian by now if it were up to that idiot Carter. And he was a well intentioned idiot. Obama's intentions are FAR more suspect. I'm sure that there WAS a libertarian candidate back then. Who would you have voted for - WITH THE BENEFIT of hindsight even? For me, Reagan- and by no small margin!

Any new President has only so much political capital. You cannot get everything you want all at once. Whether you want incrementalism or not - you cannot defend your front and back at the same time. This is the basis for Musashi's advice. This is the one main issue that I have with the Big-L Libertarians - if they can't get EveRYTHING they want RIGHT NOW - then it's not PURE enough and to hell with it. We have to take out the closest problem first.

 

[Stschil]

So would you have preferred to continue with the Carter lunacy??? Or to have elected Reagan? I, for one, would have elected Reagan. We'd be speaking Russian by now if it were up to that idiot Carter. And he was a well intentioned idiot. Obama's intentions are FAR more suspect. I'm sure that there WAS a libertarian candidate back then. Who would you have voted for - WITH THE BENEFIT of hindsight even? For me, Reagan- and by no small margin!

Any new President has only so much political capital. You cannot get everything you want all at once. Whether you want incrementalism or not - you cannot defend your front and back at the same time. This is the basis for Musashi's advice. This is the one main issue that I have with the Big-L Libertarians - if they can't get EveRYTHING they want RIGHT NOW - then it's not PURE enough and to hell with it. We have to take out the closest problem first.

It's Definately a conundrum. Because complacency, the economy isn't moving and when it does start, complacency will cause people to believe that nothing needs fixed. No one really challenged much of anything Slick Willy did, until he put his cigar in the wrong humidor. People were still basking in the Reagan boom. When things started to contract, here came more symptom soothing in the form or tax breaks and people felt good, Put themselves in deeper debt, but 'hey, it feels good'. 9/11 happens, we start to see a glimmer of what this country can be, but then, more complacency. More "someone else's job", more debt because it feels good to have stuff. Housing bust, does anything get fixed? Nope, bail outs, rewards for the inept, no consequences. More complacency. TARP, few voices against it, we as a Nation, remain fat, dumb, and happy. Obama ignores bankruptcy laws, gives GM control over to the fox, rewards the people that allow it happen. Chrysler, Obama administration, again ignore bankruptcy law, devalue the company and allow it to be sold to a Foriegn concern. Complacency......
Romney may very well be able to fix the economy or at least get it back in track, but guess what will happen once people are employed again and have money. Yep, you guessed it, more greed and more complacency.
All the while, the fiber of the nation continues into atrophy and apathy.
I really don't think we, as a society, can survive many more bouts of this match before We to down for the count.

Know why, no matter what seems to befall the Middle East countries, they continue to survive? No one takes life for granted, no one believes its someone else's job to provide for them.

Dave Ramsey helps people with their economic woes all the time. The people who succeed are the ones who have learned the lessons.

Our central government will never learn that lesson so long as we continue to accept the they keep serving up.

 

[Libertarian01]

To All,

From my perspective I believe that most folks I know as Libertarians are more at peace because they are no longer controlled by fear.

By this I mean that, speaking only for myself, I am not afraid of President Obama being reelected because I know he will do harm to this country. However, that harm was done by President Bush before him and President Clinton before him and President Bush before him and President Reagan before him and on and on...

I know that if Governor Romney wins this election he will drastically harm this nation. It will be in different ways than President Obama, but nonetheless harm will come.

I must say that there is a vast gulf of difference between the man/woman on the street of a particular party and the party machine itself. I find common ground on certain issues with both republicans and democrats, yet notice that neither side is truly happy with their own party. That is because the party machines are so corrupt that they have become two (2) wings of the same political mechanism that is driving out country away from greatness. So the issue is not with 99% of the republicans or 99% of the democrats who are not part of the machine and my disagree openly and honestly about issues, but with the 1% of the party machines that drive our nation into the same ruinous wreck.

So I am not afraid of four (4) more years because I know that four (4) new years will be just as bad, albeit in a different manner. So to vote for either of the two (2) major party candidates is a vote supporting the slow demise of this once great nation.

Fear of one major party over the other no longer has sway over me and I find a great deal of peace in that. For those who feel we "must" vote for a major party just to keep the other guy out, I pity you, I really do. And I do not mean that in an arrogant or demeaning way, but in an honestly peaceful way knowing that I was once there myself. I pity the people who are controlled by fear so much that they cannot stay true to their ideals out of fear of the other side, and that is very sad.

Regards,

Doug

 

[hornadylnl]

To All,

From my perspective I believe that most folks I know as Libertarians are more at peace because they are no longer controlled by fear.

By this I mean that, speaking only for myself, I am not afraid of President Obama being reelected because I know he will do harm to this country. However, that harm was done by President Bush before him and President Clinton before him and President Bush before him and President Reagan before him and on and on...

I know that if Governor Romney wins this election he will drastically harm this nation. It will be in different ways than President Obama, but nonetheless harm will come.

I must say that there is a vast gulf of difference between the man/woman on the street of a particular party and the party machine itself. I find common ground on certain issues with both republicans and democrats, yet notice that neither side is truly happy with their own party. That is because the party machines are so corrupt that they have become two (2) wings of the same political mechanism that is driving out country away from greatness. So the issue is not with 99% of the republicans or 99% of the democrats who are not part of the machine and my disagree openly and honestly about issues, but with the 1% of the party machines that drive our nation into the same ruinous wreck.

So I am not afraid of four (4) more years because I know that four (4) new years will be just as bad, albeit in a different manner. So to vote for either of the two (2) major party candidates is a vote supporting the slow demise of this once great nation.

Fear of one major party over the other no longer has sway over me and I find a great deal of peace in that. For those who feel we "must" vote for a major party just to keep the other guy out, I pity you, I really do. And I do not mean that in an arrogant or demeaning way, but in an honestly peaceful way knowing that I was once there myself. I pity the people who are controlled by fear so much that they cannot stay true to their ideals out of fear of the other side, and that is very sad.

Regards,

Doug

Thank you for putting this into words that I never could.